Fn Versus Ctrl: Let the Games Begin
There have been many comments over the last few weeks, fueled I suppose by the T400s keyboard update, regarding the positioning of the Fn and Ctrl keys on ThinkPad. Any long time ThinkPad fan will know the Fn key has been in the extreme lower left hand corner with the Ctrl key right next door for a very long time. I personally can’t remember it not being there.
The Fn key first debuted on the monochrome display ThinkPad 300 in October of 1992. Yes there was a ThinkPad with a monochrome display. The Fn key circa 1992 was placed exactly as it is today. Interestingly enough, Apple uses the same positions for their Fn and Ctrl keys as ThinkPad. Every other notebook personal computer manufacturer that I know of has the Fn and Ctrl key positions swapped. Some would say backwards.
The Fn key was originally placed by the ThinkPad designers in the lower left hand corner to make the key easier to locate when using the keystroke combinations. There was a rationale. This is especially handy for turning on the ThinkLight in the dark. Aim for the two extreme corners. Desktop keyboards have never had the Fn issue to deal with since there are not such stringent size contraints for their keyboards that require the use of such a key.
This is a often debated topic that quickly divides the room into two highly emotional camps. There are arguements to support both cases. So who is right? Who is wrong? Is there really a right answer or not? People have even gone so far as to write code to swap the keys location in BIOS. Others despise the idea of ThinkPad aligning with the status quo and would rather fight than switch. I thought it would be interesting to poll the Design Matters readers to gauge the strength of voice each camp has. Let the games begin.
David Hill
Lenovo Meet the Modder Dean Liou
Lenovo Meet the modder- Chris Blarsky Dairy 2
Lenovo Meet the modder- Chris Blarsky Dairy 1
Lenovo H320 desktop
July 17th, 2009 1:14 pm
leave the keys where they are but give users the option to switch the keys in the BIOS, then everyone’s happy. heck, you could even go as far as making the two keys the same size and allowing them to be physically switched to match the BIOS setting. but please, for the love of humanity, don’t screw those of us who have used thinkpads since inception by permanently moving the physical key locations.
July 17th, 2009 1:39 pm
Ctrl Fn
Reasoning — my non-laptop keyboards always have CTRL in the far left, so that’s where my finger automatically goes. I have and can retrain my fingers to remember that the laptop is different when I had a MacBook Pro — but I never liked it. My Sony Viao VGN thankfully is Ctrl Fn.
Switching them in a system setup/BIOS without having switched the keys or labels is confusing enough that I wouldn’t personally use that option. Maybe two tiny OLED screen keys.
July 17th, 2009 2:12 pm
I appreciate this topic a lot. I own a MacBook Pro & a thinkpad T30, and certainly both have the Fn key in the same location, unfortunately, my wireless logitech keyboard don’t, and i understand the pain, but anyway i prefer both (apple & lenovo) still putting the Fn key in the corner, is a matter of ease of use, ergo-thinking we use the Fn when we are laptop keys needed, and certainly in my case most of the times is in darkrooms, or quick situations. the ctrl key is certainly used more for copy and paste, and i have accustomed to have it in the two locations. now and trying to not extend to much this comment i’d like to share other feelings about both keyboards and Fn keys (mac and thinkpad):
First: both laptops have a tech for lighting up the keyboard, thinklight vs backlight, my favorite: thinklight why? lets see: the mac laptop have by default a light sensor for detecting when our eyes need assintance for the keyboard, most of the times is on the wrong side, i mean when we are in low light the system triggers it, but my eyes are ok and i think is not necesary, i finished turning it off in the system preferences, and now comes the problem, the keyboard layout for the backlight in the mac, is not straightforward like thinkpad is (Fn+F12?) in the corners, apple please think, how can i in a dark room identify the F10 key in a middle of a row! if we switch the fn key with the ctrl, we will be causing the same effect in the thinkpad keyboard, well just for one position, but the same problem.
Second: the apple backligth uses more power than the thinkligth, is a major area to light up, and is less beneficial, with thinklight you can illuminate a piece of paper or other small object in hand, apple’s tech can’t. and the thinklight is less sci-fi, i mean, is a more natural way of lighting things.
Third:(and i think perhaps i’m going a bit off-topic to the thinklight side) the thinklight can be trigger all time! of course, but apple’s not, apple just cand light up its keyboard with the system loaded and operational, if you wake up your macbook from sleeping and is password protected, you can’t manually swith on the keyboard light ¿?@#* whataf*+ç% how can i type if i can’t see the keys? believe me i have suffered this in several times, watching movies at night, or working and trying to not wake up my wife, thinkpad had a far better solution, but for watching movies, the thinkpad owners still need a apple remote alternative, perhaps one wusb or bluetooth one! help lenovo! as we need a magsafe power conector, on this we must cheer apple, well this is in case lenovo is not preparing something.
sorry for the loooooong post
July 17th, 2009 2:14 pm
i’me totally agree with erik. the keyboard customize utility don’t provide any help on this?
July 17th, 2009 2:25 pm
This is a bit of nuts idea but what about making them the same size and physically interchangeable?
I must confess I have never tried swapping keys on a laptop before and I’m loath to try it since I really like my lenovo keyboard but it’s something that might be possible, especially if you took that into consideration when designing it.
I’ve met someone who swapped all his keys on his macbook so they were dvorak, otherwise the idea would never have occurred to me.
There are goods reasons for having it both ways when you’ve always had it Fn Ctrl until now.
July 17th, 2009 2:26 pm
100 % agree with Erik. You can find so many discussion on internet in communities icl. On forum.lenovo.com where usually final conclusion is – leave the keys where they are because of current users who got used to it after several years but give the opportunity for new users (and user using external keyboards (where in corner is CTRL, except external ThinkPadf keyboard with UltraNav)) to switch CTRC and Fn.
July 17th, 2009 2:39 pm
I think the solution is to keep the current position but make the FN key smaller (half the current width).
July 17th, 2009 2:53 pm
> There was a rationale… Aim for the two extreme corners.
You guys think of everything. No detail is too small. I sit in awe. And thank you for thinking of us.
July 17th, 2009 3:25 pm
A BIOS setting would be useful.
It’s not a matter of which is right (Fn on the left or right), it’s a matter of the extreme confusion and inefficiency that occurs when you use a Thinkpad and you use any other keyboard/laptop. So a BIOS level swap in the Thinkpad would be able to make all the user’s keyboards behave in the same way and avoid second guessing while typing.
July 17th, 2009 3:31 pm
I would love to see the need for the Fn key eliminated.
I was having enough trouble switching between my desktop keyboard for my docked ThinkPad, and the ThinkPad keyboard that I’ve opted to drop the desktop keyboard completely. I’ve got my T60 screen folded down flat in front of my large external display.
July 17th, 2009 3:48 pm
I prefer the current solution for several reasons:
- if there is completely dark, it is easy to turn on the thinklight
- if you stand up, it is easier to hit the sleep or lock button
- I usually use the following key combinations with ctrl (I am using Ubuntu, however most of these keys and meanings applies on Windows): c (copy, close program), v (paste), w (close tab, delete word), s (save), d (close shell). It is easier and faster to hit them, because the ctrl is closer to the keys.
These are my reasons to keep the current status.
July 17th, 2009 3:57 pm
Please keep it classic,
FN key in the lower left corner
and please remove the Windows Keys.
Lenovo could at least offer a “classic” keyboard as option.
July 17th, 2009 4:08 pm
[...] Read David’s post and vote here [...]
July 17th, 2009 4:09 pm
I work almost exclusively with either my T60 keyboard or an external keyboard attached to it. I have zero problem switching between them.
I only get a bit confused if I have to use another notebook with the Fn and Ctrl keys swapped.
It seems that instead of looking for the Ctrl key on the edge of the keyboard, I look for the Ctrl-Windows-Alt trio (on a subconscious level). I realized that just now.
July 17th, 2009 4:39 pm
Just leave the keys on their place – “Fn Ctrl”. I use Fn combinations instantly, so Fn on the left is everlasting brilliant design for me!
Cheers to all Thinkpad fans!
Vladimir [Odessa, Ukraine, TPad x61s]
July 17th, 2009 4:45 pm
As I expect, lenovoblog will read mainly Lenovo/Thinkpad users and FN-Ctrl order will be preferred. this is my pov
I am longtime user of Toshiba U200, this tiny professional notebook has on (left) Ctrl only, so I am using constantly and Ctrl-Fn is my preferred choice.
Even I have not ever IBM/Lenovo notebook, I am waiting for T400s, I like its characteristics and will check it when it will arrive to our country. maybe I will buy it even with Fn-Ctrl, but I prefer swapped order.
July 17th, 2009 4:52 pm
Have you consider adopting the Caps Lock key design for the Fn key? The space between the Caps key and the “A” key is very effective in keeping me from hitting the Caps key when typing (I am a touch typist), so I think it’s worth considering.
July 17th, 2009 5:09 pm
I favor the current configuration because, as stated by an earlier commenter, that location makes it easy find the Fn key in a dark room either to turn on the ThinkLight or to suspend or hibernate the system. There is another reason, though: having the CTRL key near the ALT key makes it easy to hit CTRL-ALT-DEL on the now-rare occasions when that’s needed. I’ve used both TPs and desktops pretty much interchangeably since I got my first ThinkPad (with a dreary 10″ black and white display) in about 1993, and I’ve never had any difficulty switching from one to the other.
July 17th, 2009 5:16 pm
I appreciate having the Fn key in the lower left hand corner. I am used to this arrangement as ThinkPads have always had it and I am quite partial to this style.
However, an option in the BIOS to allow the consumer to swap the keys could be useful. An HP/Compaq UltraPortable I used for a time had this option and I used it to mimic the ThinkPad placement. This would seem like the ideal compromise. In addition if the Fn and Ctrl keys were the same physical size they could be swapped by the end user.
Hopefully that would put this whole controversy to bed.
July 17th, 2009 5:57 pm
If you ask me, it’s actually easier to hit control in its current position. It’s closer to the alphanumeric keys. The BIOS option really seems to be the way to go in order to please everyone though.
I’d love it if the Windows key was removed and the larger control and alt keys brought back, but it’ll likely never happen. I’ll just keep enjoying my untainted T42 keyboard.
July 17th, 2009 6:12 pm
Leave the keyboard as it is. If people want a different keyboard, they can get a different laptop. Lenovo is at a very difficult position. If they change too much to get market share, they will alienate their core customers.
Sometimes it’s better to sell to a niche loyal quality group, then sell to the masses.
Look at acer and toshiba. Crap, flimsy, and they shortened their enter key so that they could cram another weird key “\” in between.
So that when I use a toshiba, this happens:
First line\second line all because of stupid key placement.
Keep Lenovo, for lenovo people, and you’ll always stay in business. For example, why would Lamborghini want to make a car to sell to people that buy Kia. Those people buy Dell (crap)
I’ll keep my Lamborghini and Lenovo thank you very much.
July 17th, 2009 6:17 pm
I’ve been a fiercely loyal ThinkPad user every day for over a decade. Please leave them as they are.
Cheers…
July 17th, 2009 6:39 pm
As someone who is not a ‘devoted Thinkpad user’ I do feel as though the Ctrl, Fn position is more logical and easier to use.
When we look at almost ever other brand of notebook computer on the market (bar Apple of course), they use this position, for what i perceive to be:
- More consistent placement when compared to desktop keyboards.
- Greater emphasis to the key that will be pressed more, i.e. Ctrl-~ combinations are far more prolific than Fn-~ combinations.
- And Apple doesn’t reply on Ctrl-~ to as great a degree as a Windows machine.
So that’s my ‘neutral’ point of view on things.
July 17th, 2009 6:53 pm
Ctrl-FN would be my ideal layout. I dont ever use the FN key in normal computer operation, but Ctrl used alot and I often hit the FN key instead of required Ctrl. Makes me have to redo alot of copy/paste functions. Ctrl key on the farthest end of bottom row makes it alot harder to miss while using my pinky finger to press it. In the current thinkpad setup i have to use a really odd and uncomfortable angle to hit the correct key and it is easy to hit neighboring keys by mistake. Making them the same size and swappable via software would be the best solution.
July 17th, 2009 7:12 pm
Fn Ctrl as the default with a BIOS option and same-size keycaps to switch them if desired.
July 17th, 2009 7:26 pm
Ctrl Fn
If you’re touch-typing, keeping your left hand in the home positions AND putting your pinkie on the current Ctrl position is physically difficult. Ctrl-Z is especially awkward. Spreading them out fits the hand much better.
I appreciate the thought that has gone into the Fn+Thinklight combination, but I never use my Thinklight – the screen is relatively bright and I rarely need to see the keyboard anyway.
I press Ctrl thousands of times each day, while I press Fn maybe half a dozen (on suspend). I’d much rather Ctrl, the heavily-used key, be fast, comfortable and easily accessible. Make it larger and position it on the outer edge.
July 17th, 2009 7:38 pm
Another vote for “Fn Ctrl as default” with BIOS option.
Please also keep the Ctrl key larger than the corner Fn key: I am so used to the Fn Ctrl Win Alt key-sequence on the left on a Thinkpad.
July 17th, 2009 8:18 pm
When I first converted to a Thinkpad, the Fn really screwed things up for me. But I’ve gotten used to it.
But…. Why even HAVE a Fn key???!!! I do not know if this is possible, but it would be really nice to get rid of the Fn key and make another key do its job (say the middle mouse/scroll key).
Call me stupid, but the first time I used a Thinkpad, I thought that the Fn keys could be activated through the use of a middle mouse button + F keys (both are blue on my keyboard).
This way most functions can be achieved with only one hand, unlike the corner combinations since the “Fn” is now in the middle and is still easily located.
I don’t want to hijack the posting, but I think that this would be the way to go.
PROS -
No confusion whatsoever
One less key to worry about
One handed function activation
Two handed activation with minimal movement (no need to “go” for that corner)
One hand always on home row
Faster Activation since thumbs are always near the middle mouse button.
No “Fn” key, so more Ctrl space
CONS -
“Fn” labeling on the middle scroll button may be ugly
Don’t know whether it can be done!
July 17th, 2009 8:19 pm
I know this will never be adopted, but I think Ctrl would best be placed at Caps Lock’s position, which is really valuable space left to an almost useless key.
July 17th, 2009 8:29 pm
^^^ EDIT
Just wanted to add, when I said that I “Don’t know whether it can be done!” what I meant was keeping the middle scroll’s original function while adding the “Fn” function. So when you hit the middle scroll, it does what it is supposed to do, but hitting the combination of middle scroll plus F4, for example, enables sleep.
If this is not possible, I say leave the format the way it is.
July 17th, 2009 9:01 pm
See, that’s the strange thing. As someone who likes consistent and good UI, this doesn’t bother me. In fact I never noticed it till all the whining online. I just used both Thinkpad and normal keyboards, well, normally! So my vote is to leave them in place since it doesn’t affect me that much and I do like the ability to reach out for the Thinklight in the dark.
July 17th, 2009 9:03 pm
I voted that it makes no difference, because I don’t use that Ctrl key. I swap Ctrl and CapsLock and use the caps lock functionality, now available via the debated Ctrl key, quite rarely.
July 17th, 2009 9:54 pm
I’ve been use to the Fn Ctrl layout because my old thinkpad had it obviously and my ideapad has the same layout.
Since i got my ideapad, I noticed how much I miss the keyboard light.
July 17th, 2009 11:10 pm
I absolutely hate the function key where it is. Sure its easier to find but I hardly every need to find it so who cares. I use the Ctrl key hundreds of times per day.
The thinklight deserves its own dedicated button, perhaps right next to the light.
July 18th, 2009 12:09 am
Definitely absolutely CTRL FN.
If you write a software to count the number of times the user presses the Ctrl key and Fn key, I suspect it’s above 1000:1. Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V, Ctrl-A, Ctrl-S… We can’t live without Ctrl. FN key? Well I use it, like once a day.
The only reason not to swap is that some are reluctant to change and the design team is afraid of irraitating people. But consider this: much more people are willing to change!
July 18th, 2009 12:40 am
I’d like to say from another perspective: customer relation.
Of course, there are many reasons for CTRL FN, and essentially only one reason for FN CTRL: user habit. Note most readers of this blog are loyal users, so they user words like “classic”. Those who don’t like current layout already chose other brands.
Habit is not a reason. If users got used to something, they’ll soon get used to something else too. And in this case, they’ll get used to something that’s more useful and convenient.
Yes, swapping the 2 keys will cause some hard-core users uproar. But this is a minor issue. Do you think product reviewers would actually spend time discussing this minor keyboard layout change? No, I doubt it. Even if some loyal users complain, will they leave? No. They’re here because Thinkpad is a great product, and they’ll stay for the same reason. But on the other hand, for customers who randomly stop by and try Thinkpads, will they leave because the keyboard layout feels awkward? Yes.
July 18th, 2009 2:04 am
Hey Dave
I can’t vote since you didn’t include the third option, make Fn and Ctrl same size so the users can switch them as what ever fit them. I kind of see that either way, you are going get a lot of people mad, so take the middle way.
July 18th, 2009 2:32 am
Fn and Ctrl are problems of switching with BIOS and only having to do.
It is necessary to correspond at the hardware level though it is possible to change by the registry.
This problem was problems for solution earlier than Esc and Del were enlarged.
July 18th, 2009 3:40 am
Fn Ctrl Alt, no Win key
That works for me on Thinkpads and on Macs, don’t change it please.
July 18th, 2009 4:58 am
For me its easy question: FN Ctrl set forces all professional users of DTP and graphics programs to spit. Same sequence makes alot of other users to cry.
TBH the only reason our design bureau buys HP laptops is ya silly FN button.
July 18th, 2009 7:14 am
I hope someone like this idea, although it’s completely different from everything else…
Yes, I do use that Fn key and certainly have use for finding it by touch. But not as much as the Ctrl key… And in some way I feel that it’s closer related to the buttons than to the keys… maybe you should make it a button! Since it’s really not part of the keyboard that would be good.
So, completely change the location of that Fn key!
To the most upper row. On my T43, I’m thinking somewhere between the Esc key and the “Access IBM” button. On the T400s that would be between the Esc key and the mute button. In short: to the right of the Esc key!
Then put the original size of Ctrl and Alt back, and put those keys to the left. And suddenly there is room for a Fn-sized Win key without affecting Ctrl, Alt and even Space key.
I recently switched to Windows 7 and the lack of a Win key just grows bigger and bigger. But really, I’m not sure of where I want it to be. Maybe I would like Win and Menu keys instead of the Back and Forth keys alongside the arrow keys. Since those are just sending Alt-arrow I cannot remap and try it, that’s a pity. But I need to be able to easily navigate my computer with one hand. Sort of strange requirement maybe, but that means I would miss the Back and Forth keys.
But again, in the upper right corner of my keyboard sits a few keys I cannot remember using at all. Pause/Break, Insert, PgUp / PgDn… Home / End I use a little but every time I feel it would be better with a arrow key combination. Same one could replace PgUp / PgDn too.
Oops, I came a little off topic again. But not that much today, since the topic was way nearer to what my mind came up with…
Thankyou, David and everyone else, if you read all this!
July 18th, 2009 7:39 am
As an afterthought, I like to add three things:
On-topic: The idea of middle scroll button as Fn is something I really like, in a way same thing as I was thinking – just a little better. Way easier to find then my button placement.
Off-topic 1: What about the Caps lock key? I do use the function – maybe a few times a month. I would be happy with having Ctrl there instead – as long as I can reach the Caps lock function somewhere else, maybe in that upper right corner with the useless keys…
Off-topic 2: Num lock !!! It needs to be far easier to access. Maybe on that Caps lock key space! Think of it, how often do you write numbers and how do you write ONLY CAPITAL LETTERS?
And then make it “holdable” as well, so that I can write a few numbers without switching it on. Of course you can’t do that with the Fn key as some other manufacturers if you change that one to a button. It sure would be more logical with Num lock than Fn anyway…
July 18th, 2009 8:06 am
Fn Ctrl, but with BIOS option to swap them.b
July 18th, 2009 8:35 am
Please don’t change their place.
July 18th, 2009 8:54 am
O8h7w has some good ideas. Just move it from the bottom row entirely and make Ctrl-Win-Alt better sized.
July 18th, 2009 9:47 am
My vote: Keep it “Fn Ctrl”
Make it optional in BIOS for those not that can’t get used to it or don’t want to. Maybe make the keys the same size so those who want to physically swap them, can. Using Ctrl-Z,X,C,V combinations are easier when Ctrl is closer to the center.
July 18th, 2009 10:32 am
Please dont change their place, and please remove those windows keys. The full sized Ctrl and Alt keys and ability to use a single hand to do ctrl+alt+delete is very useful.
Or atleast provide two keyboard options when trying to choose a system.
July 18th, 2009 10:51 am
We use CTRL+key combinations far more often than FN key combos, be it for basic, essential cut, copy & paste in content generation to browser actions like open tab, close tab, bookmarking, tab navigation, etc.
The current CTRL key placement makes for awkward one-handed operation.
From an ergonomic point of view, it makes sense to place the key at the bottom left most corner. In addition, users who have to use other keyboards are not forced to make adjustments.
Just locate the left bottom corner key, move one key to the right and your FN key is there for you to activate your ThinkLight. What’s so difficult to do that in the dark? Or better yet, why not allow CTRL+PgUp to also activate the ThinkLight?
Ergonomics over tradition anytime!
Remember: ThinkPad (used to?) stands for innovation.
July 18th, 2009 11:50 am
My CTRL key is used constantly for keyboard shortcuts but the FN key is very rarely used, so I think they should be switched around to CTRL FN.
For the T400s keyboard changes, you guys assessed which keys are used most commonly – have a look at that research and check how frequently the FN key is used compared to the CTRL for average users – I would think CTRL is the more often used key.
Looking at the poll, I doubt things will change, but at least a BIOS setting would be nice. The ability to physically switch them would be a bonus too – I’m sure your engineers could come up with a wise way of making this work without changing the sizes of the keys.
July 18th, 2009 1:32 pm
I like szuo’s and ThinkPad.Forever’s comments. A few things I note:
1. If providing a BIOS/keyswap option, the default should be whatever the least savvy users will want. That would be the Ctrl-Fn crowd that is coming from other laptop makers. I’m guessing that ThinkPad fans who care about this issue are 100x more qualified to make BIOS and key changes.
2. Reviewers will most certainly notice (sorry szuo). I saw one just recently call it out on the T400s. They will heavily tend to favor a change. Because they see so many other machines, they consider ThinkPads to be the odd ones out.
3. Current Internet discussions do not favor one or the other arrangement so much as they favor having a BIOS option. Both sides agree that this is the best way to go. Aside from that, my impression has been that the discussions favor Ctrl+Fn, but that is to be expected because those are (currently) the upset users.
4. I don’t think that users moving key covers around physically is a very happy solution, even if it is the best one. Perhaps this would be a good excuse to make a new design improvement: easier key removal and replacement. It could make dvorak users very happy as well.
5. A dedicated ThinkLight button is a dandy idea. It removes one very practical reason to prefer the Fn key where it is, and it would make users more likely to self-discover the ThinkLight. Plenty of less-than-savvy ThinkPad users don’t even know that the ThinkLight exists. If it had its own button, they would.
July 18th, 2009 1:48 pm
Leave them as-is… I don’t want to extend my fingers more than I have to and have been doing just fine with where it’s at.
July 18th, 2009 4:47 pm
First thing I do with a new computer is install SysInternals ctrl2cap (or the Linux equiv) to turn the caps lock into a control key, where it belongs.
July 18th, 2009 8:37 pm
The problem, again, is not the Fn Key, the problem is the damn “windows” key that makes a smaller ctrl and alt key much harder to hit. Leave the keys where they are, just get rid of the windows key or offer a keyboard without it.
July 18th, 2009 9:41 pm
Regardless of the keycap removal process, it’s impossible to rearrange the keyboard into Dvorak due to the TrackPoint.
July 18th, 2009 11:12 pm
OFF TOPIC:
Seems like the Caps Lock key is a hotly debated topic as well (maybe there will be a future thread about this one too?). If Lenovo considers renovating it, I would like to see a Caps Lock hold function that was discussed. Hitting Caps-lock once will enable/disable caps as usual, but holding caps enables numlock….. (or vise versa) Something to think about. Although I hate the Caps-lcok key and the way it is position, I don’t think many people would like it if it were moved to a completely new location.
Anyways, just glad that Lenovo cares about what their customers think!
July 19th, 2009 6:07 am
I use a ThinkPad on its own, but I often also use it with an external keyboard without a fn button, because despite being quite keyboard savvy I make mistakes when switching to the ThinkPad from my Acer and HP desktops. I get frustrated with the Lenovo when aiming for the ctrl key sometimes.
Standardisation across brands is a good thing, when that standardisation embraces usability over brand USP. However, I understand you have to keep your loyal ThinkPad-only users happy, so to me the only answer must be – allow users to customise their keyboard layout via a control panel, and also provide instruction for flipping the keys (or simply stickers with ctrl and fn labels on).
This question shouldn’t be an either/or (these questions rarely are) when it’s not that hard to allow the user to make the choice for themselves.
Very glad to see you discuss these questions though!
July 19th, 2009 4:28 pm
FN CTRL is the only layout that matters. Please do not change it. If I wanted another layout I would have gone with another manufacturer.
July 19th, 2009 7:42 pm
I will vote to leave it as is..
though, since i am a two finger typeist (which means i can’t type), my opinion should not count for much..
but being a conservative type of guy i tend to like things to stay as much the same as possible..
this is one reason i have always likes one brand of cars..
in a panic your body automatically knows where the eject lever is located..
July 19th, 2009 10:12 pm
FN CRTL is the best layout in my opinion for the reason stated in the article, it is easy to find when needed for key combinations.
What needs to be changed is the CAPSLK needs to be removed, with the CTRL key put in its place. This layout makes so much more sense as Caps-lock is basically a dead key in today’s computing. Newer keyboard layouts like Colemak and a few of the revised Dvorak mappings have already removed the Caps-lock key from their layouts. Placing the CTRL key on the end of the home row makes all the famous key sequences (CTRL + C, etc.) easy to produce with one hand, without leaving the home row.
I am not sure why some people believe that the CAPSLK key would be missed. The average user never uses CAPSLK, unless they accidentally hit it, at which point there is usually swearing. While some advanced users might miss it, these users would either alter their keyboard layout in software (which many probably do anyway) or would just adapt to the new layout.
As someone who remapped my CTRL key to the CAPSLK key months ago in my X11 config file, I can honestly say that I have not missed it, and would now not change back for the world.
July 20th, 2009 1:00 am
I agree with above poster that Lenovo is in the difficult position. If you change too much than you will loose your core customer and eventually thinkpad will evolve to other notebook like HP or Toshiba.
I like the present solution better. It distinguished this brand with the others.
A bit out of topic, i like the off-centered screen on R400 and T400. This give some kind of avant-garde design on the boxy thinkpad. Too bad you guys eliminated this design theme.
July 20th, 2009 3:50 am
What’s about removing the FN key completely? The same functionality could be provided by the ThinkVantage key:
Pressed and released – and the (imho needless) Productivity Center starts.
Pressed together with one the function keys (F2-F12) – and the equivalent tool starts.
Advantage: more standardised keyboard layout and less discussion about the right order.
July 20th, 2009 4:15 am
Make CTRL in the left corner or give user option to choose!
Damned Fn is the matter why I din’t buy lenovo laptop still!
July 20th, 2009 4:17 am
BTW: I’m usin’ laptop about 2,5 year and I don’t need Fn button! Then what for make it in the corner where CTRL must be!
July 20th, 2009 5:46 am
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July 20th, 2009 9:34 am
[...] the principles discussed here, or only some of them; especially given the recent discussions around key placement and design innovation in [...]
July 20th, 2009 9:36 am
Having the option to swap keys is a noble goal, but is hindered by the physical size of the key. Have you ever noticed that the Fn key is much smaller than the Ctrl key? This is because you use the Ctrl key more often (keyboard shortcuts and the like) than the Fn combos. The idea is to still have the key there, but take up as little space as possible in order to avoid hitting it accidentally, whether or not that’s actually the case due to the position.
Having the two keys sized differently also allows one to distinguish which key it is by the feel. Granted, this also comes down to muscle memory, but small differences do matter.
July 20th, 2009 9:45 am
1. If you’re talking about radical keyboard changes, my first request would be to (re)move Caps Lock. It has by far the most undeserved prime real estate on any keyboard.
2. I usually remap Ctrl to Caps anyway, but it is annoying to have to avoid Fn in the corner. Ctrl belongs there. IMHO, “real” (i.e. keys in the standard keyboard layouts) should get priority over vendor-specific keys. Since many Fn-key combos are 2-handed anyway, why not put it somewhere unintrusive like next to the big blue button?
3. If you can’t move Fn, I like the idea of at least being able to remap it in BIOS.
4. Who are these people using Dvorak but still need to look at the keys??
July 20th, 2009 10:20 am
How about being even more radical?
When thinking about how I use the Ctrl key, I looked at my T40, I looked at my work machine (Dell Latitude) I looked at my desktop keyboard (IBM Space Saver II). I also have an Ultranav USB keyboard.
On the laptops, the position of the right-hand Ctrl key makes it very hard to use. And move from the home row to the cursor keys is a large hand movement. So what about swapping the postion of the right-hand Ctrl and and Alt keys with the cursor keys: I.e: move the cursor keys under “?”. And THEN move the Fn key to the far right end of the keyboard? Puts both Ctrl keys in the standard desktop position, reduces the hand movement when reaching for th cursor keys, and keeps the Fn key at an easy to find corner.
July 20th, 2009 10:39 am
I really had to get used to the Fn key in the bottom-left corner with my Thinkpad. Now that I did, I wouldn’t really want it to change places once again. BUT all other keyboards have the Ctrl-key bottom-left. Even when I bought an external Lenovo keyboard for use with my Lenovo docking station I had to switch once again. It’s not the positioning of the key that’s the problem. Either way works fine. But it’s the differences between keyboards that makes it a pain…
July 20th, 2009 11:30 am
FN – Ctrl
I´ve been using this combination since my first laptop (a mac I used to “borrow” from my dad), and I continue to use it now I switched to Think/IdeaPad.
All hail the T60!
July 20th, 2009 12:30 pm
Only Fn — Ctrl!
Ctrl must be in the corner to use it in hotkeys.
July 20th, 2009 1:59 pm
I think we can all agree that whatever key is closer to the left edge of the keyboard will be easier to find. The next logical question is: Which key is used more often? While I don’t have any statistics in front of me, I can’t think of a single user that’d use the Fn key more often than the Ctrl key. Any veteran ThinkPad users care to weigh in on this?
In terms of usability the answer is pretty clear — Ctrl before Fn — but I do understand and appreciate the factor of tradition.
That said, I think the best solution for Lenovo is a BIOS swap option.
July 20th, 2009 2:12 pm
Thank you szuo – I could not have said it more perfectly myself. “Habit is not a reason. If users got used to something, they’ll soon get used to something else too. And in this case, they’ll get used to something that’s more useful and convenient.”
That is absolutely true – having the Ctrl at the bottom left is becoming more essential – especially because doing Ctrl+Shift+ is almost impossible in the current layout.
Please at least provide a BIOS switch. Then everyone would be happy, right?
July 20th, 2009 2:49 pm
Ctrl Fn! Usefulness over tradition. We should finally admit that there is a standard, accepted placement of the Ctrl key, and that is at the bottom-left of the keyboard.
July 20th, 2009 3:46 pm
Fn Ctrl. Leaving the keys where they are with the facility to change their behaviour makes sense.
Being able to swap the keycaps around isn’t IMHO that important, but would be nice for those who feel they need it, but it seems people are saying they are “locating” the key due to it’s placement in the bottom left corner rather than looking at it to see if Fn, Ctrl or xyz is written on it.
I see the option of giving the choice to the user as being a “win – win” solution for Lenovo. Firstly, they win customers who wouldn’t have purchased ThinkPads because of the Fn key placement. Secondly, they don’t upset and lose any long standing customers because as far as they are concerned – nothing has changed.
The standard on the ThinkPad keyboard is that the Fn key is where it is. Maintaining standards should be important to Lenovo. (There has also been enough messing around with the keyboard recently)
July 20th, 2009 3:56 pm
Make it Ctrl, Ctrl, Fn. I personally never use Windows key. And having Ctrl Fn sequence matches desktop keyboards.
July 20th, 2009 4:39 pm
FN-Strg
If the Keys are placed in this way, you can alway find the Key for the ThinkLight in the dark.
Sorry for my poor english.
July 20th, 2009 4:47 pm
Ctrl Fn
Long time using keyboard Ctrl Fn, First time using Fn Ctrl with Lenovo X200. It’s really suck.
IBM’s proud of its name “Thinkpad” because of its smart keyboard design, I guess. The truth is that, almost desktop or other laptop’s keyboards are designed Ctrl Fn, except IBM X200 as I’ve known for first time use it.
99.99% out of 100%, I put my finger wrong place on the Fn instead of Ctrl … Which key is used most? While typing, I usually use ctrl key to copy, paste, move the cursor quickly, ctrl+home, ctrl+end, but now what the hell it is Fn staying there.
Does Lenovo/IBM really hear what their users are thinking?
July 20th, 2009 4:59 pm
I like the idea of having a BIOS option. Most people on this thread have claimed that having the Fn key on the far left makes it easier to turn the thinklight on when dark, but then why is the Fn key on the far left on the Ideapads??? Also, there are two forum threads about this on the Lenovo support site:
http://forums.lenovo.com/lnv/b.....d.id=12396
http://forums.lenovo.com/lnv/b.....e.id=13183
July 20th, 2009 6:08 pm
Fn Ctrl works great for most of us who are used to it, which doesn’t prevent me from asking for BIOS option to swap them to help those who don’t like it.
However – once again – at least an option to replace the keyboard with a no-Win key model with decent Alts and right Ctrl? That’s the real pain.
July 20th, 2009 6:55 pm
I guess you forgot that Control and Caps Lock were swapped with the introduction of the AT101 keyboard.
So the discussion shouldn’t be Fn Ctrl vs Ctrl Fn, but Caps Lock Fn vs Fn Caps Lock.
And while we’re at it, jettison the windows key.
July 20th, 2009 10:16 pm
Move the fn key to the windows key, who needs a windows key.
July 21st, 2009 3:00 am
Agree with erik
I’ve started using lenovo\ibm lap only this May. At first it was pretty annoying – I’ve been pressing FN instead CTRL all the time. Now it’s OK. BUT! There are a huge amount of keyboards that have CTRL in it usual location (usual desktop keyboards do not have FN at all), and it’s not a good thing when you have to switch yourself each time when you are using another keyboard.
The best way, imho, is to allow users to choose what kind of layout they preffer (at least via BIOS). Possibility to change keys phisically, imho, can be a greate improvement, but it can cause problems with keyboard itself – like peeling off keys… In this case, imho, it’s better to change the whole keyboard (or possibility to choose it as an option during lap configuring), this feature I think will be pretty usefull. I’ve been reading a lot of reviews\articles\forums\etc during choosing a new lap, and in most cases FN-CTRL layout was described as a minus of lenovo laps. Some people prefer to buy lap with “normal” keyboard layout..
July 21st, 2009 4:11 am
As 10+ years ThinkPad user, I prefer Fn-Ctrl.
But BIOS options and swappable keys will be grat for new users.
David, it’s easy to make special swappable Fn & Ctrl keys, I can explain my idea by mail, if you want.
July 21st, 2009 7:56 am
I’d prefer Fn F1 to be mapped to a software Fn/Ctrl switch option so that Fn/Ctrl positions can be swapped to whatever the user prefers. I’m used to Fn – Ctrl myself, but I can imagine many new users ditching Thinkpads due to an unfamiliarity with the Fn – Ctrl key configuration.
July 21st, 2009 12:03 pm
The control key is used more often so to me it makes sense to place it at the bottom left corner. Some three key combinations involving the control key placed left of function are difficult to pull off such as ctrl+shift+tab to go to a tab on the left in firefox. If one in the dark can find the bottom left key, surely one can then move over one key. Because the control key is used far more often, the control key should be on the left.
It is a difficult thing to solve because there are many users who would be furious if lenovo were to change the keyboard layout. Even equalizing the size of both keys would be slightly bad because currently at least the control key is very large and hard to miss. lenovo is indeed in a tough position. were they to change the layout, lenovo would be charged yet again for damaging the classic thinkpad design. yet this current key placement is difficult for many new users.
As for some advocating removing the windows key, I would not recommend that. To me the windows key is important for efficient computing. Using windows vista, I often press the start key and then type right away into the search bar for the application that I want to launch. The search bar in vista is very powerful and I don’t need to type many letters. There are a few but still useful windows key shortcuts such as windows+D (minimize all windows) and windows+E (windows explorer).
July 21st, 2009 12:42 pm
I use the Ctrl key every 2 minutes, and the FN key a few times a day. The Ctrl key placement is the think I hate most about my ThinkPad (I was able to adjust to the TrackPoint, but the Ctrl/Fn issue still annoys me).
July 21st, 2009 12:51 pm
Another thought… if you swap them (Ctrl-Fn) maybe put a pip on the Fn key. Then it would be easy enough to find by feel in the dark, even though it would be the second key in.
July 21st, 2009 4:19 pm
IMHO there is no “Optimum”. I think that as it is right now, i.e. Fn-Ctrl is good if you use Thinkpad keyboard only, because Fn+Light is easy to locate in the night and Ctrl is easier to reach with your little finger. However, in case I often switch from Thinkpad to desktop keyboard, I would definitely opt in for Ctrl-Fn.
It’s like similar to your T400s enlarged delete key – great improvement, unless you often switch from thinkpad to desktop keyboard.
So please, make Fn/Ctrl positions configurable in BIOS.
July 21st, 2009 5:04 pm
Ctrl only. I would place fn elsewhere on the keyboard. In fact, anywhere except at the left of Ctrl! My little finger wants to reach Ctrl easily…
But I would also live with the current layout and an option to swap the keys in the bios.
July 21st, 2009 6:22 pm
Many suggested removing the Windows key and offering a BIOS setting to swap the Fn and Ctrl key. I doubt they will do it.
Those who don’t use the Windows key probably don’t know how to use it anyway. One principle of software is that users should be able to work perfectly solely on the keyboard, without a mouse. That’s why we need a Windows key, or you can try activating the Start button without touching your mouse. Of course, the Windows button does much more than that.
The idea of using a BIOS setting to swap the Fn and Ctrl key perhaps comes from computer geeks. I for one am totally okay with it. However, as a consumer product, this is unacceptable. The design will be ridiculed by reviewers. It’s simply to say “The Lenovo team doesn’t know what they are doing. They don’t know the right thing to do, so they leave it to users.”
I think there also must be some hot debates within the company regarding which key should be at the corner. To me, technically, the answer is obvious: the Ctrl key. However I fully understand sometimes corporate culture and politics can play a decisive role. I’m not blaming the company. It happens everywhere and is what we do and see every day.
July 21st, 2009 7:28 pm
>> “However, as a consumer product, this is unacceptable. The design will be ridiculed by reviewers. It’s simply to say “The Lenovo team doesn’t know what they are doing. They don’t know the right thing to do, so they leave it to users.””
Getting into the BIOS is something only hard-core computer users (“geeks”, “nerds”, whatever) do anyway. There’s no reason a reviewer would ridicule that decision – do they ridicule any other setting that users can choose – “Lenovo allows users to choose what size of hard drive they want in their laptop – obviously they cannot make a decision for themselves” – I’m sorry but that is an outrageous argument.
July 21st, 2009 8:12 pm
Some people speak of “extreme confusion” caused by the different placement of the control key between a ThinkPad keyboard and a desktop keyboard.
I am an intensive user of of the control and alt keys (yes, plural, having them on both sides of the space bar is essential) as I am a programmer and my primary text editor is Emacs. I am also a touch-typist, so I rely on muscle memory to locate the control keys.
And I have no issue with the different keyboard configurations. I do not understand why people get so confused.
July 21st, 2009 8:49 pm
Would LOVE to have two equal sized keys AND a simple toggle in the BIOS PLEASE!
Can’t imagine this basic functionality being difficult for a company with the resources of Lenovo… and this should put an end to this saga once and for all.
July 22nd, 2009 1:22 am
As a new thinkpad user, I will gladly welcome an option the switch the keys. don’t get me wrong. I believe the current key placement does have its benefits and I have actually easily adopted to the Fn-Ctrl key placement. But the problem arises when I try to use Ctrl on another keyboard. We learn from habit and switching back and forth between two different keyboards just doesn’t work with me.
July 22nd, 2009 2:53 am
Here’s an easy way to look at at.
As already stated by David and the Thinkpad design team the optimal location to easily locate a key is in the bottom left corner. Now which key is most commonly used in every day use when typing? That’d be the Ctrl key. It seems like that bit of information escaped the Thinkpad boffins when they were working on their design.
I’m constantly pressing the Fn key when I’m after the Ctrl key, the current layout doesn’t feel as natural especially if you’ve ever used a laptop where the layout is reversed and never had this issue.
The only Fn key combinations I regularly use are Fn+F4 and Fn+F12 and for these one offs I’ve got no problem with ‘finding’ the Fn key.
As for the argument about it being easier to turn the light on in the dark when the Fn key is in the bottom left that’s true but how hard is it to move your finger to the right one key *should* you need to do it on a rare occasion?!
I liked the idea about doubling up the ThinkVantage button as the Fn key thereby eliminating it all together and freeing up more room for the remaining keys.
Either way I’d really like to see a BIOS update so I can fix this problem once and for all.
July 22nd, 2009 4:20 am
Leave the keys where they are.
In the dark you can switch thinklight on fn and PgUP withnout looking where they are becouse they are on the corners. It is Easy.
July 22nd, 2009 4:54 am
surely Fn Ctrl
My girlfriend has a laptop with Ctrl Fn and that sucks. It means that while typing I have to _reach_ for the Ctrl key with my pinky. With Fn Ctrl I can press it without reaching
July 22nd, 2009 6:07 am
CTRL Fn
it’s ideal, i hate it when laptops switch these two, from desktop to laptop is a hassel.
AT LEAST offer a bios options to change the two.
and please include the bios update in the next t400s
July 22nd, 2009 7:29 am
I’m kinda used to the Fn-Ctrl placement after many years but it is still irksome.
All conventional keyboards on desktops from ages ago have ctrl at the bottom left edge of the keyboard. The ctrl key is used for many tasks such as shortcuts to copying, pasting, undoing, opening a new tab in IE, etc. When one moves on to a new Thinkpad laptop, it is inevitable that there will be irritation with the new ctrl position, and initially, I found myself hitting fn-c and fn-v for my copying and pasting.
When one gets used to the fn-ctrl layout – what happens when going back to a regular keyboard? Bloody irritating. I end up hitting the Windows key. This whole irritating mess was imo caused by the initial designers who decided for some reason to put the fn key at the edge instead of the ctrl key. Back then, there was no windows key but a simple gap, so why did they not put the fn key there? I can’t think of any good reason why they did not. I would love someone to give me a good reason for the designers’ initial decision. From the way I see it, it is counter-intuitive and forces new users to (1) adapt to the new positions and (2) experience tremendous irritation when switching back to a desktop keyboard. Of course (2) does not apply to those who use their thinkpads exclusively.
My guess is that the people voting to keep the existing layout are those already used it – i.e. the more advanced technical users as opposed to your general everyday user. And given the obscurity of this site, it is more likely for such users to frequent it and vote in this poll as opposed to the everyday user. Drop this poll in a site/forum with a larger audience (not just for advanced users) and my bet is you’ll get quite the opposite picture.
I actually seriously considered (as my initial purchase) getting an Acer laptop, the only reason being the positioning of the fn ctrl keys (thankfully I didn’t!) – but if Lenovo would like to increase the number of people using Thinkpads, I’m pretty sure the only logical decision would be to switch the positioning and leave a BIOS option for the more advanced users (who imo are the ones prefering to keep the current layout) to switch if they prefer.
July 22nd, 2009 11:53 am
I find it amazing that people want to maintain this layout because “it’s easy to turn the thinklights on at night.” Are you kidding me? You want a key in the most convenient location to use it once or twice a day??? If so, give me a good reason as to why Idepads have the same layout? I don’t see no stupid lights on Ideapads keyboards.
I have to disagree with David when it comes to the comments on this blog. Advanced users are those who use the keyboard much more frequently than the touchpad and therefore need a convinient placement of the Ctrl key (lower left corner). Everyday users don’t really use shortcuts (other than ^c, ^v) and therefore don’t really for where the ctrl key is.
July 22nd, 2009 5:23 pm
@szuo
“Those who don’t use the Windows key probably don’t know how to use it anyway. One principle of software is that users should be able to work perfectly solely on the keyboard, without a mouse. That’s why we need a Windows key, or you can try activating the Start button without touching your mouse. Of course, the Windows button does much more than that.”
I often use exclusively keyboard and I don’t need Windows or Menu keys (the latter of which I’ve just hit AGAIN by mistake, missing the too small Alt, and because of which #”$”! I so often fail to select text using Ctrl+Shift+arrow keys). I had shortcuts doubling most of their functions I found useful since forever, thank you very much, and more than two extra keys that screwed Ctrl/Alt sizes and assigned a few fixed shortcuts, I’d prefer Windows to have all its shortcuts easily customizable.
July 22nd, 2009 5:35 pm
Please, dear David Hill and everybody else, read another one of my slightly off-topic comments… cause I think I’ve got a beautiful idea!
If, as Phelan was thinking, the middle scroll button was to be Fn… there is a very good solution to Win and Menu keys nearby. Fn+Left click would be Win key and Fn+Right click would be Menu key.
Try it! It’s really easy to press those combinations with one thumb, leaving a lot of fingers for Win key combinations. And I cannot imagine a more logical placement, especially of the Menu key! I actually been calling it “that right-click-key” every now and then…
This would give a lot of space to the bottom row, almost too much? Then maybe a Win key on the left would be good use of it.
Thankyou to anyone who like this idea and helps me push it through!
July 22nd, 2009 5:49 pm
@szuo:
Activating Start menu: Ctrl + Esc
Right-click menu: Shift + F10 (but that one is too hard, and not doable one-handed)
But in Windows 7 we’ve got the taskbar… Win + T
And programs that are pinned to it: Win + # (where # is the number counted from the start menu)
And handling those windows with Win + arrow keys
So, in XP not a big thing, but in 7… and you’ve got to be up-to-date in this business ( if anybody missed out on that
)
July 23rd, 2009 1:56 am
I’ve been using an MSI wind netbook for quite a few months now and it has the keys laid out as Fn-Ctrl, and on this computer I really don’t mind it (in fact I really prefer it on this computer, where it activates page up/down, home/end, and makes brightness easier to find in the dark)
However, I don’t do as much work on this computer, and when doing a little programming like to make use of many ctrl combination hotkeys (to highlight things and copy/paste or what have you)
perhaps you could make more use of texture in a ctrl-fn layout to make the key easier to find in the dark? it wouldn’t necessarily have to be palmrest texture; it could be individual key texture, or the key itself could be longer or be L-shaped (I think like some enter keys) so that it could stick out on the bottom, below the other keys. If the user could slide his or her hand below the keyboard and easily find the key by touch, perhaps it would not sacrifice the ease of use that the current placement allows?
I probably don’t care as much as some users, who have more keyboard shortcuts used more frequently than mine
July 23rd, 2009 4:18 pm
Please read post 48, 49, and 50. The Ctrl key is used much more often, therefore deserves the corner location. I use a X301, my first Thinkpad, it’s a huge pain to adjust to a non-standard layout. It won’t be bad if that’s the only keyboard I use. But I cannot find an external keyboard that has Fn Ctrl. It’s always the other way around. I would consider the Lenovo keyboard but it’s missing the Windows key. PLEASE change future layouts to Ctrl Fn. Or give us an option for an external keyboard with the Windows key. Thank you.
July 25th, 2009 7:29 am
Hi,
I have company Lenovo X200 for few days and I have to say that FN-CTRL combination makes me complain to anyone I met to this notebook. I really do not underestant why you makes your keyboard against global standards. I use ctrl hundreds times a day whereas fn twice a week. I unerestand die-hard lenovo fans they want to keep fn-ctrl. But please for the rest of the world, could you make us the possibility to choose? I believe, it will cost you a little (money and/or reputation) to create a small utility or BIOS option.
In fact – this only little think makes me hate your product. The rest is really good.
Thank you,
Petr
July 25th, 2009 11:04 pm
Keep Ctrl/Fn keys the same place, but add some key mapping software to switch Crtl/Fn keys.
That is, no matter what design choosed, everyone can use the key layout he likes.
July 26th, 2009 3:20 pm
If the Ctrl key is used more often, we can also say that it should be place at a location with shorter and faster reach by the pinky – other than the corner and nearer than the corner to the center of the keyboard.
From a biomechanic point of view, there need less / no wrist movement in order to reach the current Ctrl key and than to reach the current corner Fn key – it means faster.
One other concern is that Fn key is usually press when the fingers are not in the “home” row location – so having it at the corner is a definitely plus to locate the Fn key when not in the home row.
For the Ctrl key, what do we think why there are so many hardcore Thinkpad users supporting the Fn-Ctrl layout? There are something called “muscle memory” – these long-time Thinkpad users have their fingers tuned for the Ctrl key in the Fn-Ctrl layout in their muscle memory. Changing from Fn-Ctrl to Ctrl-Fn for new Thinkpad users will on the other hand mess up the muscle memory of these hardcore Thinkpad fans who have been typing mainly on their Thinkpad keyboard for YEARS.
What should Lenovo opt to do?
July 27th, 2009 12:37 am
I use Desktop for years. I wish
1. there’s an option in BIOS to swap the 2 keys.
2. Remap Fn as Ctrl under Linux. Then we can use Fn-c as Ctrl-c, Fn-v as Ctrl-v.
July 27th, 2009 12:41 am
Having borrowed a friend’s Thinkpad over the weekend (I’m considering buying one), I can say that it’s definitely different, and would take getting used to. Maybe I just have big hands, but I find the stretch to the corner of the keyboard to be more comfortable than trying to tuck my pinky under the rest of my hand to reach the Ctrl key. I also find some of my other common ctrl key-presses (ctrl-shift-esc, ctrl-alt-del) to be more natural to my hand when the ctrl-key is all the way at the end of the keyboard.
On a full-desktop keyboard (no windows-key), there is space between the Ctrl and Alt, the Windows key goes there, because it’s unused space, but there’s no reason for it to take all of it up. Makes more sense to me to squeeze it in there, as well.
I agree that a lof of Thinkpad users prefer the current layout, and a lot of non-Thinkpad users prefer the other way. I know several who won’t buy a Thinkpad because of it. If there was a BIOS setting for it, the problem disappears, and I think it would go a long way to making everybody happy. Then it doesn’t matter which your preference is, you can pick whichever…
July 27th, 2009 9:31 am
@Nicolo Menuhin:
>> faster reach by the pinky
Having the Ctrl key in the bottom left allows for easier location – which is actually faster than having it closer to the space bar. Shorter distance is not the same as faster reach.
>> “muscle memory”
But if you are a user who uses other computers other than your ThinkPad keyboard (which is MOST if not ALL users nowadays), your muscle memory gets totally messed up because EVERY OTHER KEYBOARD IN THE WORLD has the Ctrl key in the bottom-left corner.
I respect that ThinkPads have been in the Fcn-Ctrl layout for a long time, so at the very least Lenovo should provide a BIOS switch so the hardcore geeks who cannot stand to have the Fn key in the bottom left can change that. On the other hand I think Lenovo should change the layout – it may be painful for some, but in the long term it will be better for the ThinkPad design. It’s time to admit that Ctrl belongs in the bottom-left position.
July 27th, 2009 9:55 am
@Gavin
However, easier location of Ctrl in the corner does not compensate for the fact that the key is used in combination with other keys and that its inside location allows for greater number of easily realised – i.e. useful – combinations.
Also, at least IME, desktop keyboards have larger Ctrl keys so location is easier because of that.
@8h7w
I have no trouble doing Shift+F10 with one hand, but it takes some getting used to if you need it regularly, which I don’t.
July 29th, 2009 4:31 pm
Keeping the function key where it is because of tradition is as stupid as Apple keeping the one button mouse. Move on people. Then a post about standards, how ironic.
July 29th, 2009 5:08 pm
There’s a much easier way: drop caps-lock, nobody’s using it anyway (and anyone telling me he does is either crazy or doesn’t know how to do proper writing) and add a Ctrl key for it.
Ctrl is a often used key and it just doesn’t fit in the bottom line out of reach of every finger for touchtypists.
These guys show how to do it:
http://www.pfusystems.com/hhke.....board.html
Also the current manufacturer of the good old IBM Model M keyboards offers it:
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/linux101.html
Yes, it brakes not only with the old traditions (as would a switch between Ctrl and Fn), but also with the industry standard. But it’s a huge improvement and worth doing it.
This also means you can drop one key in the bottom row for good, make the other keys bigger and let Fn be where it is: bottom left.
July 29th, 2009 6:07 pm
It’s nothing to do about tradition. Some people genuinely feel Fn Ctrl is better for them. I myself hardly ever use the Ctrl key.
July 30th, 2009 2:34 pm
If you wanted to offer the option of changing the ordering and moving the actual keys, you don’t even need to make the keys the same size.
You can put the underside connection of the left key to the far left, the connection of the right key to the far right, then ship each keyboard with a pair of Fn keys (one small and one large) and a pair of Ctrl keys (the sizes of which complement the Fn keys).
Add a BIOS option or a physical switch, and you’re set.
August 2nd, 2009 11:56 pm
Hmmm, the main problem I have with your %$#*& fn key, is that on my R61 it is in the neighbourhood of Ctrl, which on my other 3 computers is there by itself, so whenever I use the thinkpad I end up hitting it a lot by mistake, since ctrl does some mission critical stuff, it is the equivalent of putting 2 buttons next to each other in your car, one puts the brakes, and the other turns it on,turn down the lights in the cabin, and well, you’ll be saying things like %$#*&
August 3rd, 2009 10:31 am
The poll is spoiled from the beginning for majority of the voters are owners of Lenovo laptops.
Somebody for whom fn-ctrl placement is unacceptable (and yeah, i know plenty of such miserable buggers, being one) wouldn’t have bought a Lenovo laptop in the first place, and wouldn’t therefore complain about the keyboard on lenovo blogs… See?
August 4th, 2009 10:10 am
I will never again buy a Lenovo until the keyes are swopped. I have hade a T61 for a year and a half and I hate it. Almost everything about it is brilliant but since such an important key as the ctrl-key (never mind the fn-key, that one you could remove completely) is in an unusual place the computer is only useful for surfing around for waether reports, finding out what is on tv and such. Serious working is not possible, at least not without an external keyboard and even e-mailing is very annoying. Writing more than a word or two just makes one angry.
Now, for Lenovo die-hards this is probably not an issue. For some people, the ones who haven’t used that many computers or the ones who only use one single computer this might be irritating for a just a while. But the rest of us… nope, sorry.
August 5th, 2009 5:43 pm
I’m considering to buy a T400s, but the ctrl/fn placement is really bothering me. Please add a BIOS switch.
August 6th, 2009 1:19 am
[...] Fn Versus Ctrl: Let the Games Begin????? [...]
August 6th, 2009 4:33 am
CTRL should always hold the lower left corner.
All other keyboards whether it be from desktop or notebook, have the CTRL key for the and this has been so for the past decades.
To move CTRL from the lower left corner would be like shifting ESC key away from upper right corner and spacebar to the side.
August 7th, 2009 4:24 am
please, add the *BIOS-switch*. If HP is able to, Lenovo should be able, too. And please do not offend the customers with “anyone holds a patent on this BIOS switch”.
August 7th, 2009 7:54 am
[...] Lenovo’s poll over at Design Matters showed over a 1.5x greater preference for the current layout, the usability and [...]
August 7th, 2009 12:31 pm
It’s probably best if you keep the position the way it is, because it clearly seems as if many, many people like it the way it is now.
For me, though, having Fn is a big problem. I use to scoll through tabs in Firefox using the CTRL + Tab-shortcut (and CTRL + Shift + Tab für scrolling in the opposite direction), which is very difficult, unless I’m changing the position of my hand on the keyboard, which again isn’t really a solution.
I would therefore ask you to make this changable. I know, this is probably difficult to do. But besides the many people who like it the way it is, there’s also a big group who doesn’t. (This poll and the many forum topics are a clear sign for this.)
August 9th, 2009 3:23 pm
My Vote: CTRL should always hold the lower left corner.
It’s the one thing holding me back from buying a lenovo.
August 10th, 2009 1:46 pm
Why not just make the Fn and Ctrl keys the same size and removable so the user can swap them? Then just provide a BIOS setting.
August 12th, 2009 1:16 am
Please try to make a BIOS switch for the Fn and Ctrl keys available to ALL Lenovo users, and not solely the ThinkPad users, and make it possible to buy a set of sticker keytops for the Fn and Ctrl keys.
To all the posters in this thread saying remove the Fn key, how many of you use the Fn key to access the secondary functions of the cursor cluster?
On my 3000 N200, I have to use the Fn key regularly as ‘Home’ is the Fn on ‘PgUp’ and ‘End’ is the Fn on ‘PgDn’.
Jenifur Charne
August 13th, 2009 1:37 am
I think you can make Fn key and Ctrl Kay as same size,so not only we can swith the funtion in BIOS, but also we can swith the key caps in keyboard.
So most of us will be happy. ^-^
August 13th, 2009 12:22 pm
why not make both of “ctrl fn” and “fn ctrl”
customers can choose what they like
August 15th, 2009 6:22 am
oh, keep the keyboard the way before.
i really like the Fn-Ctrl layout.
please!!!
August 16th, 2009 2:13 am
I’m a Ctrl-Fn guy because I used a Dell D820 for the past 2.5 years, and that’s how it is laid out.
First preference: BIOS option + keys same size & interchangeable so you can match physical key layout to BIOS
Second preference: For me, if I could just train the Fn key to act like the Ctrl key with certain combinations, I would be fine. I mainly use Ctrl with Z, X, C, V, B, I, & U. The Fn key is used in combination with none of these of which I’m aware.
August 16th, 2009 4:06 am
I don’t buy lenovo’s laptop simply because of this weird layout, no matter how cheap it is.
August 17th, 2009 11:46 am
It’s best if we would have a change setting in the BIOS.
August 19th, 2009 7:20 am
Why don’t you try to :
- keep the Fn Ctrl thing
- add some sort of physical barier between those two keys, like a plastic ergo on the upper right corner of the key a little bit higher than the Fn key and almost surrounding it. You could also try some sort of extrusion under the Ctrl key like the ones on the lower right corner of the keyboard
Because for me, when I search for the Ctrl key, I sweep my finger towards it until I feel the end of the keyboard and for Ctrl+C Ctrl+V I rarely look at the keyboard. Anyway, in case I need to hit the Fn key, I always have to look at the keyboard because I don’t know the functions layout.
Or why don’t you put the fn key on the “²” I don’t know much functions using that key, and you could make the Ctrl key bigger !
August 19th, 2009 7:22 am
Oups, bad idea for the last proposition, forget it.
August 22nd, 2009 1:02 am
The Fn Ctrl combination is killing me since I have a big hand and I’m using Ctrl+ASFZXCV… a lot in my daily work.
Ctrl is too closed to “ZX” keys and it makes my left wrist painful after using it month after month.
I have tried to get used to the right Ctrl for the shortcut combination but sorry I failed because all my other machines have lower left Ctrl and I have get use to that for years.
Now Fn Ctrl is the only reason that I’m giving up Thinkpad machine.
August 25th, 2009 3:34 am
The answer is so clear: Make It Configurable!
August 25th, 2009 4:21 am
the fn key is, for the most part, useless. I can’t say that I’ve ever used it for anything more than mute my laptop, which could’ve been a dedicated button anyway.
furthermore, as a desktop PC user for, well, forever, I’ve grown accustomed to the ctrl-key shortcuts and that FN key just gets in the way. It’s not uncommon that I just keep pressing FN-C or FN-V out of habit and get annoyed that nothing happens.
the same rationale for the fn key being in the corner is applied to the CTRL key…
also, the shortcuts it offers are pretty pointless. how many people will really want to start up apps with fn and an f key… hell, how many people have ever used an f key? (other than say the F5)
imo these shortcuts are pointless and just one or two hardware buttons would do the job more nicely.
only issue with removing that pesky fn button would be numpad keys, but you have numlock for that. (one could argue that on a normal keyboard you do have both caps lock and shift for the same functionality and well, why are they needed?)
just my two cents, and just to repeat my vote:
CTRL – FN
August 26th, 2009 8:26 am
ctrl – fn
I use the ctrl key much more frequent than fn key, especially in some games such as, warcraft 3 , starcraft and other RTS games. In these games, the players need to use ctrl+number to make some units into a group. If fn key is located at the left-down corner of the keyboard, it would increase the failure opportunities in such games. And I suggest that the price of thinkpad t-series in china should be much lower than current. So far, I refuse to choose thinkpad due to those two reasons.
August 26th, 2009 9:50 pm
Please give us the option to switch the keys.
August 27th, 2009 5:55 am
Ctrl – Fn
And for those “Fn-Ctrl” defenders: try pressing Ctrl+Shift+”~” or, at least, Ctrl+Shift+1 or Ctrl+Shift+Q on ThinkPad’s current layout without twisting your hand weirdly.
August 27th, 2009 6:41 am
Charnie, I don’t see the problem. Maybe it’s my very small hands, but those are all easy. Thumb on Ctrl, pinky on Shift, middle finger on last key. Not uncomfortable/weird for me, but perhaps with bigger hands?
If I need a key further to the right than one reachable with index finger while I have thumb+pinky on ctrl+shift I can switch to pressing ctrl+shift by laying my pinky flat and hitting both keys, running diagonally between Fn and (extra key found on a lot of non-US layouts, to the left of Z), then use index finger to hit the other key I want. Again, possibly my very small hands/thin fingers is making this easy for me, while it may be harder with big hands.
August 30th, 2009 12:34 pm
Look, Joakim: the natural position of fingers is parallel or, at least, the position, when the lefter finger is pointed to the lefter point as when, e.g., left thumb is on the middle of spacebar, left index finger on “F” or “R” and the left pinky on left Shift. Thus, when you have to twist your hand to lay fingers in a vertical or, moreover, in a backward order, you can feel enough disturbance. Especially if you’re a touch-typist.
August 30th, 2009 1:43 pm
@Chamie
Among my many keyboard shortcuts, Ctrl+Shift+Q is one of those that I use most frequently.
August 31st, 2009 12:29 am
After one month of daily use I still cannot get used to the weird combination of Fn/Ctrl. It is really annoying.
I vote for Ctrl/Fn.
September 2nd, 2009 11:59 am
First my opinion: CTRL FN
Second, note that the results to this poll can’t be taken at face value. Results will be distorted.
On the one hand, the audience of the blog (as has been noted) are Thinkpad devotees. Results from that audience will likely be swayed towards FN CTRL.
On the second hand, those voting CTRL FN (like myself) are probably people who have been doing web searches trying to remedy what they view as a serious deficiency. Note that: those who vote CTRL FN are likely spending serious time researching a remedy. It’s not casual blog browsing for that group but an attempt at problem-solving.
Following that logic, keep in mind that while you’ve got a bunch of votes from people who clearly want this changed, there are a LOT of forums and discussions about this so you’re only seeing a portion of those who search. How many gave up before finding this poll?
Fact is: FN CTRL violates standard keyboard layout spec. That’s bad. While I accept the argument that for some people (people in dark rooms for instance) finding FN easily is handy. Okay, fine. Make a BIOS option to swap, or stick the FN key somewhere else conspicuous. If you can do it for the Thinkvantage button or volume buttons, you can do it for FN. Make a bloody “LIGHT” button for all I care. Just stop disrupting the efficiency of those of us who switch from system to system as a career.
September 3rd, 2009 5:54 pm
I prefer Ctrl Fn without a doubt. Not only am I accustomed to typing this way, as my current Lenovo tablet replaced a Sony Vaio (which replaced a Compaq desktop) and so have been using a Ctrl Fn layout for well over a decade. Going from a touchpad to a trackpoint was an easy adjustment to make, but not having Ctrl in the right place is almost as bad as having backspace and = switched; certainly, it is a design that will stop me from buying another Lenovo computer to replace my tablet.
But even beyond having a preference for having Ctrl in the corner created out of habit, it makes much more sense to have Ctrl more easily identifiable. Windows-supported shortcuts to open items located on the desktop or in the start menu are all of the form Ctrl+Alt+__ or Ctrl+Alt+Shift+__. As someone who rarely opens programs by clicking on them, I need to use Ctrl whenever I want to open a document, play music, browse the internet, or, essentially, do anything on my computer. Within a program, nearly every command can be executed by using a Ctrl command (save, open, print, close, new tab, bold/italics/underline, change font size, zoom in/out, copy, paste, refresh, etc. etc.). On the other hand, I literally have never used the Fn key except to turn on NumLock—which I do maybe once a month, as opposed to the several-times-a-minute frequency with which I often use Ctrl.
Essentially, I find the keyboard layout to be the biggest (in fact, only) downside to my computer, but it is such a problem that it will cause me to switch brands.
Having an easy program to switch the bindings of the two keys would fix that completely.
September 3rd, 2009 10:07 pm
i would prefer to have it ctrl fn, and i also want a way to switch the meanings of the forward and back buttons on the arrow keypad, because it makes it very easy to lose text when i’m typing in a browser.
thanks!
September 7th, 2009 6:57 pm
I definately vote for Ctrl/Fn switch in BIOS, reading so many discussion and frustrated people. I am suprised that IBM did nothing about it. Lenovo tries to learn from IBM mistakes, but there is still no solution for new owners of Thinkpads and forced users by employers which buy Lenovo.
I do not know whether Lenovo tried to make a better keyboard and changed the IBM designed saving perhaps some screws and therefore the Lenovo keyboard get noisy now on far left and far right keys.
When you type in the middle of W700 keyboard everything is fine, but when you reach to corner the following keys are annoyingly loud:
PrtSc ScrLk Pause Insert Home PgUp
F7, F8, F9, F10, F11, F12, Delete, End PgDn
`, 1 9 0 – = Backspace
Tab Q W O P [ ] \
CapsLk, A, S L ; ‘ Enter
Shift Z . / Shift
++Ctrl, Fn, Windows Ctrl, Arrows
Could you create also a new kind of: Let the Games Begin for IBM vs. Lenovo quality keyboard? My vote would be: do not try to make it better if it is already perfect.
September 10th, 2009 10:30 am
Assuming we need an FN, the only valid combinations are
CTRL FN WIN ALT SPACE
CTRL FN OTHER ALT SPACE
The fact that the voting is a tie shows that the FN CTRL combo is a failure. Most people coming here are Thinkpad users, so if it was a good idea it would be weighted heavily on the FN CTRL side.
It’s a bad-think legacy of IBM, and this should have been changed to a NORMAL, STANDARD layout back in the 90’s so people wouldn’t get weird and religious about the currently bad setup.
Now, understanding that Lenovo can’t cut out the rot of FN CTRL because they’ve waited too long, because enough people now have the proprietary oddness in muscle memory, Lenovo should offer a way to switch FN CTRL to CTRL FN for the other 99% of the world that might encounter a thinkpad or thinkpad-derived keyboard.
Best, Lenovo should offer a remapping utility that lets you work ANY key on the keyboard, including those obnoxious “web nav” arrows. For ease of use, obviously the utility would have some presets. If Lenovo provided such a utility, and please point me to it if it exists, then the keyboard’s usability would match its legendary feel.
September 10th, 2009 10:40 am
Furthermore, even Apple, the most arrogant company in the world, didn’t usurp the CTRL anchor. With Lenovo moving heavily into the consumer space, they are making a mistake keeping FN in the corner office.
Obviously, Lenovo must see it as a distinguishing feature, an identity, but it really is a perpetual crumbs-under-the-covers annoyance. Having the FN key in the corner is like misspelling your kid’s name. He’s stuck with it, and no one can figure out how to change it. Either he goes through a giant legal rigamarole, or he just adopts a nickname. Here, nickname = software utility to remap. Just give us a remap and I’m happy.
September 10th, 2009 2:29 pm
…and furthermore, if the FN key **can’t** be remapped because it’s a proprietary in-keyboard mechanism (this would be the lamest), then Lenovo should look to Kinesis, makers of fully customizable keyboards. Their keyboards have a built in remapping mechanism, obviating the need for any deeper hardware/OS integration. This would be an investment benefiting both internal and external keyboards.
So, if the FN key cannot be made visible to generic (non-Thinkpad) hardware, then either
1) Drop FN CTRL, it’s wrong. Make it CTRL FN because that’s the way it should be
…or…
2) Allow the keyboard to be customizable from the keyboard itself. Add $5 to the cost and all of this anguish goes away, and you will also have the hottest keyboard around. Even gamers would want it.
September 14th, 2009 6:08 pm
I’m glad to see this issue addressed again, because I, like many others have asked for this so many times I can’t remember. This one issue, has kept me from purchasing more Thinkpad products for myself, staff and others who I make recommendations to.
I originally got a T60 and coudn’t stand the FN CTRL so I got rid of it. I would purchase multiple units right now if they had this issue addressed, but it will be HP, Sony or Dell unit because Lenovo has no way to address this issue.
Here are some suggestions:
1. Implement a BIOS switch to swap CTRL and FN keys.
2. Use some windows based software to swap locations.
(With either of the above suggestions, that would work for all legacy products, and for new products you could even put a LED that would lite up if they were swapped.
3. Make the FN and CTRL keys some type of LED that when swapped (by any method above) that would help display which format the keys were in.
4. One other option (besides doing something above for legacy products), start standardizing to CTRL + FN to match the industry. I was talking to a owner of a company, and he said he wouldn’t purchase the laptops for that one issue (he had tried it and said it was totally unusable)
I’m hoping this gets resolved ASAP as I would like to get some X’series Tablets, and other Thinkpad series, but cannot purchase right now because of this issue!
I bet there a lot of companies and individuals just like the one I mentioned above and myself. Please Lenovo, take serious note and FIX this ASAP.
September 18th, 2009 4:09 pm
I have the BIOS switch option on my current HP EliteBook. I have left ThinkPads off my list for potential purchase due to the FN CTRL layout being suboptimal for heavy Excel users. I like ThinkPads. Make the BIOS switch available and my company will consider them for purchase.
September 22nd, 2009 12:29 am
To sold more laptops lenovo needs to attract the new buyers, and most of these new buyers will be not used to the layout of the keyboard that differs from that of the desktop. The different layout of the keyboard is the main reason that I did not buy the thinkpad several years ago though I did like the technoloy that TP used to depress the noise.
September 23rd, 2009 2:29 am
[...] TrackPoint, and has drawn focus to the previous hot topic of Fn and Ctrl key as discussed in David Hill’s blog [...]
September 23rd, 2009 7:27 am
just follow the standards of other notebooks
CTRL + Fn
September 23rd, 2009 11:17 am
I just got my brand new Lenovo laptop for work last week. High end, blazing, awesome, great key action on the keyboard… but as a previous Dell laptop user for 6 years, I just can’t adjust to use CTRL in this non-standard location for the life of me. Please make layout adjustment possible as my previously flawless document publishing processes are now error prone. This is driving me absolutely nuts and I don’t want to have to put money into an external keyboard just to make sure I’ve copied and pasted everything correctly in my work environment. Even missing simple CTRL-HOME and CTRL-END operations are slowing me down.
September 23rd, 2009 3:29 pm
Lenovo, since you’re expressing interest in fixing the keyboard, read this important message:
Regarding the BIOS switch implementation:
- The physical keys should be CTRL FN (**not** FN CTRL)
- The BIOS switch should allow for your legacy FN CTRL
- This is the *opposite* of what you’re suggesting, because what you’re suggesting does NOTHING. You will NOT improve the new-user experience, you will STILL inhibit people from buying your machines, and you will PERPETUATE a bad design.
If your biggest [fallacious] concern is the FN-ThinkLight option, then consider this: a SINGLE button for turning on the light is better. No, not on the keyboard! Put the light switch ON THE LID! Yes, wow! What an idea! Now it IS easier to find, and safe because you’re not fiddling with the keyboard in the dark. ALL PROBLEMS SOLVED. Furthermore, you’ve now REMOVED a key-combo from your layout so you can better STANDARDIZE between your internal and external keyboards.
September 24th, 2009 2:28 am
Don’t care much about the orientation of Fn and Ctrl (let’s just leave it in that order; it’s nice to have ctrl closer to center), but I would like to see the windows key plucked from the board. So, so pointless. And it would make the board more like the T42’s, which is basically the sweetest keyboard ever. I love that darn thing. Just got a shiny new W500 for thesis-writing and am feeling pangs of regret.
September 24th, 2009 11:09 am
I develop SW in RAD and VS studio. When I cooding, I using much keyboard shortcuts and using Ctrl evry minute. The diference between standart (old MS Natural Keyb) and the Thinkpad is horrible. It’s make my crazy. OMG. Now I want buy new thinkpad, thinking about T400s, it’s nice, but two horrible thinks on keyb: Ctrl and bigger del. Why every one want making changes on good things. I know, bussines need writing some emails, they don’t need insert, but ITs? Inovating is good, when it does not changing good things
For me is keyboard on NB first thing!
September 24th, 2009 1:46 pm
@ #162 – If you don’t care much about the orientation, then don’t spam out a solution (“let’s just leave it”). And, if you’re not going to think about the majority of people that use this keyboard (Windows users), then don’t waste space with myopic suggestions such as having “the windows key plucked…” If you have cogent arguments on why it should be FN CTRL and also less the Windows key, then please lay them out.
September 25th, 2009 10:51 pm
Please enable these keys to be switched within the bios. I will not buy what is otherwise a superb product without it.
September 26th, 2009 11:43 pm
Just got a new lenovo after five years of Dell. I knew about the keys being different before hand, but I keep losing information that I think I’ve copied or saved because the keys are switched. It’s also hard to get used to given that I use work computers on a daily basis.
Please, please create some way for the keys to be switched. I love my new laptop, but this is slightly maddening.
September 27th, 2009 3:13 pm
Enabling BIOS switch (as seen on some Panasonics)along with making these two keys the same size so the caps could be swapped around physically makes perfect sense to me, although I would leave it as it is now on my own machines.
As for “cogent solutions”, ThinkPads were around a long time before today’s keyboards, when IBM was the keyboard to own as well as emulate, with no Windows key, and with Fn key exactly where it still is today. To old-time ThinkPad users, Fn key in the corner is a must, not just because of the ThinkLight but also Fn+F3, Fn+F5, Fn+F7 combinations that are frequently used by many of us.
Windows key was not present on ThinkPads prior to Lenovo takeover, and I’m one of the people who wish that they had the option of even being surcharged when ordering a machine for not having one installed.
September 30th, 2009 1:29 am
Do you honestly use the Thinklight and/or Fn+F3, Fn+F5, Fn+F7 more than Ctrl-Z, Ctrl-C, Ctrl-X, Ctrl-V, Ctrl-S, or any other Ctrl combination?
September 30th, 2009 8:02 am
I double what anon says – one uses the ctrl more than the fn key. Often make the mistake of pressing the fn key when expecting a cut, paste, undo or save during an edit.
October 1st, 2009 2:28 pm
Personally, I would prefer all keyboards to have CTRL where CAPS is. Since I often use other people’s keyboards, I’m stuck making the best of a lousy situation.
In the absence of sane CTRLing, I find the Thinkpad layout works better than CTRL in the bottom-left corner. In fact, I found this page trying to figure out how to make my wife’s HP laptop behave like my Thinkpad.
I curl the tip of my pinky finger toward the base of the finger and hit CTRL with the top knuckle by the nail. Yes, it sounds weird, but it’s fast and convenient – I don’t have to reposition my hands at all. In fact, it’s so nice, that’s how I hit FN in the corner now, and CTRL on regular keyboards – shift hand 1/4 inch left, curl pinkie, tap.
Note: I’m a 90 WPM “rest the heels of the hands on the laptop” typist rather than a “hovering so only the fingers touch anything” typist. Maybe it works differently for hoverers.
October 1st, 2009 2:29 pm
Ah, I missed the main point – I don’t see a problem with adding a BIOS setting to switch the keys. If you go that route, I would also like to see a setting to allow switch the left CAPS and CTRL.
October 2nd, 2009 12:03 am
I’m curious, how many people actually still expect caps lock to be in the lower left? I mean, that’s SUN thing, right? And, maybe for 1950’s typists that were lost in the wilderness and just found, right?
October 2nd, 2009 6:32 pm
Caps/Ctrl can be switched in software, on any computer. Those get regular scancodes. Fn is one of the few keys that does not, hence the needed BIOS switch.
October 6th, 2009 1:47 am
Here’s another one I’d really like: the Fn-key should enable the numeric keypad, without having to use numlock. It works the other way – numlock+J=1/Numlock+(FN-J)=J, why can’t it be
J=J/(FN-J)=1, when numlock is off? I’ve seen this offered as a BIOS enabled setting in other brands, and seems easy enough to do. (Numlock XOR FN == numpad).
October 8th, 2009 8:12 am
I personally love Lenovo quality and would be happy to buy only Lenovo notebooks, but the keyboard!!
The 1st nasty thing is Ctrl & Fn placement, look at the vote results, at least half of the customers is VERY unhappy with Fn position. Other vendors have BIOS switch for this, is it really so hard to implement this in Lenovo? Lenovo looses many customers this way!
Now I want to buy new Lenovo netbook, and I call service companies (before buying!) asking if they can resolder Fn and Ctrl keys (understanding it will void my warranty).
Just make BIOS switch for them and make them both of equal size/shape, so one can swap them in BIOS and swap them physically. That’s all! Not so hard, right?
The 2nd nasty thing is Fn+Numlock, just to enter Gray Plus I have to press Fn+Numlock, then hit plus and then press Fn+Numlock again! Has anyone in Lenovo ever seen Norton Commander, etc?
October 8th, 2009 12:22 pm
What’s “Gray Plus”? Why doesn’t the “+/=” key work?
October 8th, 2009 3:03 pm
Please DO implement the BIOS switch option and offer it to reflash also existing laptops!
Currently this positioning is the number one killer argument not to buy a Lenovo or any other laptop with this positioning. If you often switch between a normal desktop keyboard and the Lenovo, the latter simply isn’t usable, you always get the wrong keys, lose copied texts, accidentally reconfigure things etc..
The problem is discussed in numerous forums as you can see by googling, and several people think as I do.
Lenovo should consider who participated in its poll, and how many people who avoid Lenovo for this reason never heard about it.
October 9th, 2009 6:41 am
1) Gray Plus is “+” on numeric keypad. Some programs, such as Norton Commander and all its clones (Far, Total Commander, …) use numpad +-* heavily. Regular +* don’t work.
Or Windows Explorer: you can expand all subfolders of a folder with numpad *, but regular * doesn’t work.
2) I agree, people participating in this vote are Lenovo fans or they have Lenovo by some reason. Great amount of potential customers are just out of scope: they don’t buy Lenovo (because of Fn placement) and they don’t participate in this vote.
By the way, I doubt somebody from Lenovo reads these comments; maybe they’ve read first comments, but comment N178 has no chance
October 9th, 2009 12:30 pm
I originally posted the following comments on the Yamoto thinking blog (http://lenovoblogs.com/yamato/.....anguage=en), but I have yet to receive a response from Lenovo. Out of desperation, I’m repeating my comments here. Lenovo, we’re anxiously awaiting an announcement from you about when a BIOS update to swap FN and CTRL is coming, or at a minimum a notice that it isn’t (in which case I may have to abandon the ThinkPad line, which is otherwise superb).
-Adam
I’m a professional software developer who uses the keyboard, and the Ctrl key in particular, much more heavily than the average user. I’m also a new T400 owner, and while my overall ThinkPad experience has been wonderful, the Fn Ctrl layout has been very disappointing.
While I can understand the reasoning behind putting Fn in the lower left (it definitely makes turning on my ThinkLight in the dark easy) and putting the left Ctrl key closer to the hand, the fact is that moving left Ctrl inward makes the keyboard *harder* for me to use, for two reasons.
First, after years of programming on keyboards with Ctrl in the lower-left, the muscle memory in my left hand is very, very strong. So when I’m on my ThinkPad, it’s not just a matter of “getting used to it”–I have to make a conscious effort to avoid using the Fn key by mistake. And it’s a terrible drain on productivity.
Secondly, the positioning of Ctrl closer to my hand on the ThinkPad keyboard actually makes using it much more difficult, even uncomfortable. While it might help someone with smaller hands to have Ctrl closer by, my fingers are long and slender, and moving the Ctrl key nearer to my hand is awful. It forces me to either a) contort my hand when executing a Ctrl chord or b) do something completely different, abandoning the use of my pinky finger on the Ctrl key.
For example, I frequently highlight text using the Ctrl, Shift, and Arrow Keys. On a standard desktop keyboard, I simply drop my left pinky down to grab Ctrl, and move my left ring finger over slightly to grab shift. I can then arrow left or right with the right hand to select what I need. This is often followed by a cut or copy command, which is simple enough, since I can leave my left pinky on Ctrl and just move my left index finger to the appropriate key.
But on the ThinkPad, I can’t do this at all. Executing Shift+Ctrl is excruciating using my habitual approach. Instead of moving my left pinky down to grab Ctrl, I have to move it down and to the right, and then move my left ring finger in the opposite direction, directly over my pinky. Try it. If your hand is like mine, it’s hard. Really hard. For me, it’s difficult to get my fingers in position, and once they’re there it puts undue strain on my wrist. So I’ve had to come up with something different when I use my ThinkPad: I sweep my left thumb all the way over to grab Ctrl, and let my left pinky grab Shift. It’s not great, but it works. But then, when I want to quit selecting text and start copying and pasting, I have to rearrange my hand to get my pinky back on Ctrl. Even if I can get accustomed to it, it will never be as fast as what I’m used to on my desktop keyboard.
This is just one example of how the ThinkPad layout gets in my way. I could offer more, but you get the idea.
I realize I’m getting really, really detailed here, but I’m trying to emphasize that this is more than a mere preference. I’m literally “wired” to work with Ctrl in the lower left corner, and I’ve been stunned at how difficult it has been to cope when one of my most-beloved keys is shoved over, even by the space of a single key.
I knew the ThinkPad’s were laid out this way when I bought my T400. I wrongly assumed that, like a Mac, these two keys could be remapped. It’s been a bitter pill to swallow that this is impossible. I certainly don’t expect Lenovo to buck years of tradition and change the physical layout of your keyboard. But a BIOS option for folks like me who depend on Ctrl being in the lower left corner would be fantastic.
October 13th, 2009 3:47 pm
I strongly agree with the desire for a BIOS option. I am on my first of what I would like to be many Thinkpad purchases, but the backwards Fn-Ctrl arrangement makes usability a lot more difficult. It’s not a matter of getting used to the switched position, because I often have to use other standard keyboards with Ctrl in bottom left, and thus the more commonly used Ctrl key should be in the same position as nearly all the other keyboards.
A BIOS switch would be valuable for existing users, because you would be relieving what has become a bit of a usability nuisance. It’s probably also a good idea to conform to a more standard keyboard layout for future models, since most people have to use multiple keyboards.
October 18th, 2009 3:27 pm
Just make Fn the ordinary key, that send keyboard events when pressed and released. I’ll xmodmap it to another Ctrl.
October 21st, 2009 5:24 pm
My workplace imposed a Thinkpad on me and I am hating the nonstandard Ctrl location. It costs me time and many errors. It will also cost you customers, since I will (a) never buy a Thinkpad myself, and (b) will warn others away from them, solely due to this stupid design decision.
People claim Fn Ctrl makes Thinkpad distinctive, but would they similarly praise Thinkpad for, say, moving Enter to the middle of the keyboard, and G/H to the far right? That would be distinctive, wouldn’t it? Oh, usability matters too?
If you want the Thinklight to be easy to use and a selling point, give it its own button rather than a secret key combination. I had no idea it was there before reading this discussion.
My top suggestion: Drop CapsLock, move Fn to the old CapsLock (because Lenovo already has Fn in a nonstandard place!), and make Ctrl double-wide so users old and new would never mistype a Ctrl character.
But since I’m stuck with this unit for now, a BIOS option would help me with this existing machine.
October 22nd, 2009 1:49 am
The problem with that is then you anger a whole lot of other people, including those who remap CapsLock to be a Ctrl (I’m considering joining them). The real issue is that Fn doesn’t get its own scancode, which it should. That or give an option, any option. It’s not hard to do so, but why they continue not to, and “consider” adding this, with no updates for nearly three months is beyond me.
October 22nd, 2009 12:28 pm
death to the “fn” key on the left faithfuls! okay maybe not. my rational is, I have a desktop and a new lenovo so now its hell. so yeah, it was actually a really annoying consideration for me. but because lenovo was superior to other competitors in every other aspect I chose lenovo. but if a few more changes would have been done I would have found my soulmate of a PC.
October 23rd, 2009 10:07 am
I’d like to weigh in from two perspectives – one as a potential Lenovo laptop purchaser, and one as a human factors researcher.
The most common keyboard shortcuts used in the computing world today are Undo, Cut, Copy, and Paste (Ctrl+Z through Ctrl+V). The frequency of these actions far exceeds the frequency of any of the Fn+ key combinations. It would make sense, then, to make these shortcuts quick and easy to accomplish by locating the Ctrl key at the corner of the keyboard, making it easy to find (see Fitt’s Law). The Ctrl key happens to be close to the Z through V keys, allowing a one-hand action.
The Fn key, on the other hand, is far away from the shortcut keys associated with it, thus it usually requires a two-hand action. In this regard, it doesn’t matter where the Fn key is actually located. I can understand why it’s located in the corner, as actions such as turning the light require the keys to be in the far corners of the keyboard.
Here is my suggestion. Currently, pressing Fn+Z, Fn+X, Fn+C, or Fn+V does not do anything. Even if through hardware, Lenovo should be able to have these key combinations send Ctrl+Z (etc.) to the operating system. That way, they can keep the Fn key where it is to appease tradition, and they can even market the “added functionality”.
Another suggestion is to make use of these new multi-touch trackpads. Here’s an idea (borrowed from the Palm Pre): Thumb on the trackpad + C = copy. That way, the action is easy to accomplish with one hand, the trackpad is easy to find, and everyone wins. Throw a gimmicky name on it, and that’s marketable too.
One final suggestion – allow users the option of a traditional (Fn Ctrl) keyboard or a universal (Ctrl Fn) keyboard. Charge $25 extra for the universal keyboard. I’d definitely pay it, and I’m sure many of you would – you’ve already spend your valuable time complaining about it. Lenovo can figure out a way to implement this for WAY less than $25.
In the meantime, I’ll settle for AutoHotKey + remapped CapsLock key, but I’m not happy about it.
October 23rd, 2009 1:53 pm
Think about use cases: how many times in a session using your computer do you use FN? How many times do you use CTRL? Then add in your customer’s overall computer use. Since no other major computer manufacturer puts their FN key where the CTRL key is, and since the CTRL key is used vastly more often than the FN key, it’s insanity to persist with a bad design just because it’s been that way for years. Definitely provide the option to customize, but for god’s sake, if “design matters”, use good design practices to answer this question, rather than some stupid poll widget.
October 27th, 2009 5:14 am
If you have thinkpad only, it is what it is, you have no feeling about it. what if you have a DELL in office and a Thinkpad at home? and I have HP desktop at home as well, the fn key makes me sick all the time.
October 27th, 2009 11:09 am
@DP I like your ideas, but FN+ZXCV sending CTRL+ZXCV isn’t good enough for me. I use a ton of other (still one-handed) Ctrl operations when using my computer A (select all), T (open a new tab), Q (quit), S (save) etc. Sure, all of those could send codes, too, but up/down/left/right (move by word/paragraph in MS software) already have mappings for Fn. I still miss them sometimes, so we have a problem.
But you’re right; I would be willing to pay $25 for a different keyboard. Hear that, Lenovo?
October 27th, 2009 12:58 pm
definitely preffer same size for both keys and easy option to swap the function.
I use CTRL + something incomparable more often than Fn + something and pressing Ctrl on the corner is in my blood, not in my mind.
I am able to find Fn key next to Ctrl even in absolute dark, I know where it is and I exactly know what I am doing when I need to use Fn key.
I can’t understand why IBM/Lenovo does not provide the option to chose and therefore I am user of Dell and HP/Compaq (together with Lenovo they have the most similar keyboards to the standalone keyboards) and will never buy Lenovo, until the easy option to swap will be provided.
Try search Google for “Ctrl Fn”. You will see the answer. People/Users will have the option. IBM/Lenovo refuses to provide it.
October 31st, 2009 12:35 am
Lenovo: face the facts, almost half your customers want to swap the location of the ctrl/fn keys. Why are you prolonging this anguish and deliberation? Just implement the swap option in the BIOS. It is trivial: it would take one of your programmers at most an hour or so. I don’t understand why you are making such a big deal out of this, JUST DO IT and get this over with!!!
November 2nd, 2009 8:43 pm
Please change this thing … Give user the flexibility to choose !! THE ONLY REASON a lot of us are not taking Lenovo computers is this weird positioning of keys !!!
November 5th, 2009 8:12 am
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November 5th, 2009 8:27 am
My laptops are Lenovo Sunrise 150 and Thinkpad SL400 which have different layout of Fn and Ctrl keys. If I can change the layout from BIOS, I will be glad.
November 5th, 2009 9:25 am
In case this is thie only one of Lenovo’s blogs you read:
http://lenovoblogs.com/yamato/.....anguage=en
November 13th, 2009 11:27 am
I’m returning my new laptop. I didn’t realize it would be such a pain.
November 24th, 2009 7:00 pm
I still believe that the Fn keys should be activated through the use of a middle mouse button + F keys (both are blue on my keyboard). If Lenovo can do this while keeping the middle scroll’s original function while adding the “Fn” function, that would be great. So when you hit the middle scroll, it does what it is supposed to do, but hitting the combination of middle scroll plus F4, for example, enables sleep.
This way most functions can be achieved with only one hand, unlike the corner combinations since the “Fn” is now in the middle and is still easily located.
PROS -
No confusion whatsoever
One less key to worry about
One handed function activation
Two handed activation with minimal movement (no need to “go” for that corner)
One hand always on home row
Faster Activation since thumbs are always near the middle mouse button.
No “Fn” key, so more Ctrl space
CONS -
“Fn” labeling on the middle scroll button may be ugly
Don’t know whether it can be done!
The BIOS option only sounds good because it is one of those “at least it is better than nothing” type of deals. If this idea made it through, both Fn and Ctrl keys would have to be of the same size (reasons are obvious). Lenovo (or any other manufactor) will never ship two sets of Fn and Crtl keys for a user swap (more costly, kind of confusing for new users, and an annoyance for those that want their laptops good to go from the start).
Another big con for the BIOS option is that most people will probably not even know about and therefore wouldn’t even buy a Thinkpad because of the keyboard issue. Only the ‘die-hards’ who like the current format would probably know about it.
December 4th, 2009 4:20 pm
I have just got a Lenovo after having an HP for many years and most of my work is word proceesing and not having CTRL bottom left is REALLY irritating…so much so that this is my first blog ever! In MS word you use CTRL all the time to jump between words when editing, whilst I use Fn at most once in a session on the computer – this is serious Lenovo please give us a BIOS option to change the keys or something and publish it widely.
December 16th, 2009 6:20 pm
BIOS update? Not a good solution.
All our corporate laptops run with SafeBoot installed (encrypts the hard drive). SafeBoot is NOT optional. It is activated through a BIOS update, before anything else.
I once made the mistake of using Lenovo’s “System Update” (I THANK Lenovo for reinstating System Update!) to update the BIOS on my SafeBoot equipped ThinkPad X61. Once the BIOS update was installed, the subsequent reboot failed since the BIOS with SafeBoot had been trashed. Since SafeBoot was no longer operational, the encrypted data on the hard drive was toast. It took over 5 days of trying to circumvent the problem until the hard drive was reformatted and my data lost (the backup was out of date – mea culpa).
Just make the Fn key a “normal key” which can be remapped by any standard keymapping software (including the ThinkVantage Keyboard Customizer Utility”). Result: Problem SOLVED – not circumvented. Lenovo one, competitors zero.
December 17th, 2009 4:56 am
The Fn key could be located anywhere on the keyboard as far as I care, as long as it is not replacing keys as found on normal (non laptop) keyboard. That means, at the bottom left, is where the Ctrl key goes.
There are two things today that will make me NOT buy a certain laptop, one is glossy monitor, the other is an Fn key where Ctrl is supposed to be.
January 9th, 2010 6:34 pm
This is the #1 reason why I do not recommend Lenovo laptops or will buy another one. I happen to use 2 other ‘normal’ keyboards during my day and generally feel very unproductive when using my Lenovo. I’m sure slowing people down is not a design goal.
For fun, let’s see Honda start having their car doors open with the hing towards the rear of the car. Or, let’s see builders start putting door handles 1 foot lower or on the left side.
These sorts of changes (without a bios option) are just asking for lost customers. I’m going back to Dell if a patch does not come out soon (and I’ll give my Lenovo $2000+ x301 to a new hire at my company).
January 12th, 2010 10:40 pm
If you have learned to properly type and do so – ie with all ten fingers – you’ll find that it is the norm to slide your left pinky down to use control. The problem is that with the fn ctrl placement it is really awkward to do so.
This is an issue because, generally speaking, those who type faster prefer to use ctrl + c,v and etc to perform functions such as copy and paste, bold, italics and etc in lieu of the mouse. The ctrl key is also one of the most central keys because many functions are linked to it.
This doesn’t affect users who don’t type fast or properly (eg using the index finger to type and etc) but it does cause problems for those who have adopted the standard way to type and those who don’t leisurely use the computer.
January 28th, 2010 6:14 am
I’d vote for allowing Ctrl & Fn to be swapped. I have used too many different keyboards, and having some standards would be nice.
Personally I’d get rid of the Windows key, but some people like it.
I never “touch type” with the FN key, although sometimes it is nice for the light as mentioned, or for making the screen brighter or darker.
What about using the blue “thinkvantage” key as the Fn key, and then making both the ctrl and fn keys act as a ctrl key. Then it would be hard to miss.
Note, I’m not sure if the FN key is active with the common keys that one uses ctrl with…
Ctrl-Z, Ctrl-X Ctrl-C Ctrl-V Ctrl-Escape
An option would be to allow the computer to recognize Fn-C, Fn-X, Fn-V as if the Ctrl key pressed.
Personally I use Alt-F4 quite a bit, but I don’t really use Ctrl+function keys very frequently. So having the Fn key act as a control key for everything but the function keys would be just fine.
As far as swapping keys, occasionally a key will pop off of a keyboard, and I can usually get them popped back on, unless something underneath snaps off… so one could make the keys interchangeable. However, I’d discourage doing it. I don’t look at the keys when typing anyway, and it would be too easy to break something. Perhaps offer replacement keys for 50 cents… including the entire support structure. But they would still be a pain to swap.
The other idiosyncrasy of IBM is the positioning of the Esc and F1 keys. I don’t use F1 at all… but use escape all the time.
And, yes, I’m running a Z61… please give the bios updates for the older machines too.
February 19th, 2010 8:53 am
I got a new Thinkpad and it cause me so much headache! Why have you replaced the bottom left CTRL key with some proprietary function key? All the keyboard shortcuts I use so reflexively on all other PCs are useless on Thinkpad because I will have to break my little finger first to press the left CTRL+SHIFT combination. I have lost unsaved documents because instead of CTRL+S I have pressed the Fn+S unwittingly.
But you know what, I have an idea, why change the position of one key only? Why don’t you discard the boring spacebar and introduce a LenovoKey (TM) that will open the Lenovo web page? You can always put the spacebar elsewhere, maybe on the bottom side of the laptop, there is so much space!
Have you ever heard about usability? Have you ever run any usability study on the impact of the misplaced CTRL key? You caused me so much headache! I thought your laptops are aimed on working professionals, don’t you know that working professionals use keyboard shortcuts? When I work I want to be concentrated on my work, not the laptop and it’s non standard keyboard layout.
I am very dissatisfied with the Thinkpad laptop.
February 19th, 2010 10:51 am
Daniel,The placement of the ThinkPad Fn and Ctrl keys is not unique to just our product. Apple does the exact same thing. If you don’t like it, Yamato has created a BIOS feature that lets you swap the key asignments. Details are on the Yamato blog.
February 24th, 2010 9:30 pm
I can’t believe Lenovo is not doing anything to retroactively fix BIOS for versions that are in sale as of now.
I bought this T400s laptop few months ago by paying $200 and absolutely love the laptop…EXCEPT the ctrl-fn
Com’on Lenovo — I am sure it is few min of a developer’s time who has already developed solution for T410 or other similar BIOS.
Please, Please do it ..and save my fingers from misery.
March 2nd, 2010 8:04 pm
OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PLEASE implement this change option for the Fn Ctrl keys. I use a Lenovo T400 because my company (80,000+ employees) switched from HP to Lenovo.
We are a SOFTWARE company which means that the large majority of users require using the Ctrl key HUNDREDS of times every day while creating documents, working on spreadsheets, writing programming code, etc.
I myself use Excel spreadsheets heavily and have become quite proficient maneuvering around using shortcuts like Ctrl+End, Ctrl+Home, Ctrl+Shift+End, Ctrl+Shift+Home, among the normally used Ctrl+V, Ctrl+C, etc for copy/cut/paste/undo/bold/etc/etc.
The fact that Thinkpads have had this configuration since 1992 is absurdly irrelevant!!! Back in 1992 it was not prevalent to utilize keyboard shortcuts as they are used today!
Now everytime I move from ANY desktop keyboard back to my Lenovo I have to strenuously remind myself to feel for the misplaced Fn key and then shift my left pinky finger right one key. When I need to use Ctrl+Shift (dozens and maybe even hundreds of time every day) I have to contort my left hand to cross my ring finger over my pinky finger to reach the shift key … did I say ridiculous?
There is no way that I would EVER purchase a laptop with this keyboard configuration. Now that I’ve been following a Lenovo forum thread for over 1.5 years and there still is no resolution, I can see that Lenovo doesn’t care what their customers want either, they only want to stick with “tradition”.
March 4th, 2010 5:07 am
I would -love- to buy a ThinkPad. But I will never do it if the Fn key is there.
I’m a software programmer and I hit Ctrl-Z/Ctrl-Shift-Z hundreds of time a day on multiple computers. Having to adjust to the Fn key being there only on my laptop is too much of a shock. I don’t want to have to think about it.
I sent my Gateway laptop in for repair during their transition to swapping the Fn and Ctrl keys. When I got it back it was Fn-Ctrl instead of Ctrl-Fn, which is how it was originally.
I couldn’t work at all. So guess what I did? I bought a new laptop.
I love the Fn key, I really do. But never, ever will I stand to have it in the Ctrl’s rightful position.
If my company buys me one of these notebooks and the keys are the same size, I’m going to try popping off the keys to swap them, even if I risk breaking them. I can easily swap the functionality in software.
March 4th, 2010 10:10 am
There’s a BIOS option to switch the functions on new systems now. See http://lenovoblogs.com/yamato/.....anguage=en
March 15th, 2010 3:24 pm
Just thought I’d comment seeming as the page I came from stated (at the time it was written) that the ‘fn ctrl’ option was 1.5x more popular than ‘ctrl fn’
I believe that a very important reason for this is the demographics of those being asked.. this is a Lenovo blog site and thus is probably missing a lot of votes for ‘ctrl fn’ by people who steered away from Lenovo products due to them being placed on the keyboard the wrong way round in the first place. (Like me for instance). Interesting however that since then (and at time of writing this), it’s now a 1.2x swing in favour of ‘ctrl fn’.
I only stumbled across this page because in a moment of boredom I thought I would try and find out why in the world ‘fn’ was ever deemed more useful or important than ‘ctrl’.
Well.. Lenovo missed out on a sale to me at any rate because of the layout. BIOS option or not.. you’re only catering to those that bought one without checking the keyboard layout first, and are missing sales from people who have come to realise what’s important about a keyboard layout – especially when you use other keyboards equally as much.
BIOS option is a poor solution – but is obviously better than nothing. Especially for all those who didn’t realise how annoying it was until too late.
April 1st, 2010 4:32 am
Should at least be possible to swap them. The biggest issue is for people who use multiple computers – then the current layout is most likely wrong. I myself fall in to that category. When I work for extended periods on my thinkpad, my fingers start to get somewhat used to this weird layout, and then when I go back to my desktop or some other computer things are difficult again.
I would not have bought this computer if I had noticed this problem earlier. My next laptop will NOT be a computer where I cannot get the Ctrl key to be the leftmost one.
May 30th, 2010 2:32 pm
Leave it like it is, but give me the chance to change it in the bios, maybe give users as a gift two stickers into the selling box to stick them on the keyboard.
June 22nd, 2010 9:24 am
Definitely Ctrl Fn.
- Crtl+Shift+xxx is much easier this way
- compatibility with other keyboard layouts (when working with more than 1 computer)
- Ctrl needs to be easier to “locate” -> corner
- who needs Fn on a regular basis anyways? There are sooo many uses for Ctrl, but only very few for Fn, which are only for “special” events.
I’m totally annoyed by having the Fn in the corner.
July 15th, 2010 5:47 am
I recently bought a Lenovo W510 and there is a BIOS option to swap Fn/Ctrl. I guess it will be included in other models too, from now on.
I think we have the best of both worlds now.
July 27th, 2010 9:38 am
Please, please standardize the keyboard:
Ctrl Fn
and let legacy users switch via BIOS
After using Lenovo, I chose Dell for my current laptop because of the non-standard Fn Ctrl layout. I used the Lenovo in a docking station with an external standard keyboard that had Ctrl in the bottom left corner. It drove me up the wall when I would switch to the laptop keyboard and constantly be hitting Fn instead of Ctrl.