Keyboard Stiffness: Myth Busted

September 2, 2008 Post a Comment (203 Comments)

Recently I’ve seen a few blog comments regarding the stiffness of the keyboard on the new ThinkPad T500. Since the legendary feel of a ThinkPad keyboard is of great importance to both Lenovo and our ThinkPad customers I thought it would be best if I shared the facts. The historical stiffener plate was removed because we discovered a superior method to provide overall keyboard stiffness. We shifted from a stiffener plate to a stiffer chassis. The net impact is a more rigid keyboard and less weight. Who wouldn’t want that? It was not done as a cost saving play. We would never trade off keyboard feel for such a small cost saving opportunity. The rigidity of the keyboard when installed in the system chassis is, however, as flex free as always. Great care was taken to ensure the new design was superior to the previous one. It’s important to understand that this functions as a combined system, not individual components. For example plastic laminate for a counter top is bendy and floppy until it is glued to the sub-structure. Together they are very strong and rigid.

The combined system of chassis and keyboard were ultimately rigorously tested using real people typing in actual user scenarios. The typical force applied during typing is between 60-120 grams. Probably closer to 120 grams if your having a bad day. These types of tests are designed to capture the overall feedback on the feel of the keyboard, palmrest, and related navigational controls. The T500 performed beautifully.

We don’t drop bowling balls from space on the keyboard and inspect the remains, but we do put flex to the test in a classical engineering way. Our engineers perform a flex test where they apply a 1 kilogram force at each key location for 10 seconds at 18 unique points. This force is much greater than actual typing. This test yielded an average temporary deformation of no more than .73mm. When compared to previous systems the new design is superior by .03mm. From an engineering performance perspective this is exceptional. Stiffer and lighter is certainly a worthy outcome..

In addition to keyboard flexure tests we also run ThinkPads through an extensive suite of classical torture tests such as shock and vibration. I think it would be a fun job to try to break a ThinkPad, although a bit frustrating. ThinkPad’s are just plain tough. With these and other tests, the T500 exceeded previous levels of performance. Myth busted.

David Hill


Posted in Outside Voices | 203 Comments »

203 Comments on “Keyboard Stiffness: Myth Busted”

  • Gaurav Sharma says:
    September 2nd, 2008 10:50 pm

    Subjective testing on notebookreview.com seems to suggest slight flex on both the T400 and T500 samples they have. If other publications indicate similar results then something’s gone wrong somewhere, perhaps in the testing process itself, at least on the subjective side.

    With the introduction of the recent Dells, if it wasn’t for the other innovations introduced in the T series (e.g. Switchable graphics), I’d think a lot of people would have been compelled to switch.

  • ThinkTank says:
    September 2nd, 2008 11:21 pm

    Is this valid for the T400 as well?
    There are several reviews claiming that the traditional feel and rigidity of Thinkpad has been lost with the current design of T400 plate.

  • crankto says:
    September 2nd, 2008 11:37 pm

    Thanks. Facts are useful and, in this case, compelling. Related (tangentially) to the keyboard stiffness issue is something I’ve been wondering about for a while: why hasn’t Lenovo incorporated backlit keyboards as an option/upgrade yet? Thinklight was once an inventive solution to the problem, but MacBook Pro and, now, Dell are utilizing a better approach. How about it?

  • Harpyeagle says:
    September 3rd, 2008 12:07 am

    David

    Nice post – good to know the facts and that Lenovo still takes pride in its keyboard.

    Is the T400 keyboard different from T500?

  • Steve says:
    September 3rd, 2008 12:51 am

    Maybe the post just mentioned the T500 only because the keyboards on the T400 and T500 are identical? Their chassis are not though, so how does the T400 hold up?

  • nicodemus says:
    September 3rd, 2008 1:07 am

    I’m wondering this myself. Too many people are reporting more flexible keyboards on the T400. Maybe it is just the vocal minority being especially vocal, but I have to believe there is some truth to the matter. Regardless of flex tests, there is a reason the perception of additional flex is there (particularly in the lower-right corner of T400).

  • erik says:
    September 3rd, 2008 1:49 am

    harpyeagle,

    the R400, T400, T500, and W500 all use the same keyboard.   i’m going to guess that the W700 also uses the same keyboard.

    david,

    were the human test group issued a mix of alps, chicony, and NMB keyboards or all the same manufacturer to keep things equal?   did the pneumatic key-smashing robot test all three boards to make sure they’re equally rigid?

  • Klaus says:
    September 3rd, 2008 2:22 am

    The reviewer from notebookreview.com at least WROTE as if he first discovered flex, and after that removed the keyboard to see the different. It didn’t sound like he first disassembled the ThinkPad and THEN thought “aha, now it must be very flexy”.

    So that’s the reason, I think, why everyone was very unsure and angry about that new keyboard.

    Well, looks like we all have to find it out for ourselves…

  • Stefan Constantinescu says:
    September 3rd, 2008 3:11 am

    Adding to what Klaus said, it’s going to take a lot of reviews to get to the bottom of this.

    Thanks for letting us know about your testing procedures, but at the end of the day it’s going to be what reviews say about your product, not what you have to say about it.

  • ralf says:
    September 3rd, 2008 3:30 am

    interesting arcticle, but one question: is the automated flex test testing the right thing?
    I would guess the subjetive feeling of keyboard stiffness does not only depends on the absolute stiffness of the keyboard (how far it bends under big pressure), but on the dynamics, how (fast) it bends the little bit it bends when pressure is applied…

    Just an idea, but i never used tx00, so I can not judge this.

    ralf

  • Agotthelf says:
    September 3rd, 2008 4:34 am

    Yes, i would assist ralf.

    Thinkpad users are a special group, their attitudes, feelings and anticipation of value is different from, for example Dell users.
    Most of them have got collected their experience of Thinkpad´s through a long time, if not a lot of years.
    Crude surveys and simple technical datasheets are not able to determine the special Thinkpad user.
    My opinion, looking at different forums and my experience as a milieu and habitus market analyst.

  • MadCap says:
    September 3rd, 2008 4:59 am

    I had used R500 for a while and cannot say a louder bad word about the keyboard. IMHO – Kevin from NBR is seeing/feeling ghost – only thing, that is little strange was little louder sound when typing keys around E and R key. While searching around NBR forums, there was nobody else to complain about flex. Sure, there is a flex – every keyboard got one. But it depends on how strong you push – when it doesnt flexes while typing (normally or even heavily), then it`s pretty ok.

  • ColMaki says:
    September 3rd, 2008 5:02 am

    @Agotthelf:
    Thinkpad users also pay much more for their notebooks, in comparison to Dell users. That’s why their expectations are higher.

    Anyway, I think that’s a good decision marketed poorly. The first thing that comes to mind when you think about Thinkpads is the keyboard. Lenovo could have turned this into a major selling point and say “Do you believe we’ve made the best keyboard even better?” (Or something like this). Then show the users how the keyboard was improved with these kind of posts and explanations.
    If you let the users to find out about the change, then you take a huge risk that they may get it wrong. And as you know, first impressions are hard to overcome.

  • Khalifa says:
    September 3rd, 2008 5:04 am

    I’m very soryy but i tend to disagree with you I’m typing using my T61 now i went to Lenovo dealer and tested the new T400 Keyboard and it flexes just like cheap notebooks very big disappointment really end of an era as exactly as i read in notebookreview.com for more than 12 years i have been an IBM-Lenovo ThinkPad customer and for the first time in these 12 years that i seriously consider buying another brand my advice to Lenovo is to listen to its customers like Dell & HP do i remember reading everywhere customers asking Lenovo for a DissplayPort in the next 14.1 T series however Lenovo didn’t listen and released the same outdated notebook with cheaper plastics and no DisplayPort + killed the only thing that makes ThinkPads special the Legendary Keyboard! never ever compromise on quality and congratulations again on the SL series!

  • SteveJ says:
    September 3rd, 2008 8:13 am

    I appreciate that you finally wrote something, but I disagree. None of your “tests” and whatnot will remove the keyboard flex from my T400, the “new” keyboard is simply “mushy” compared to my previous T60.

    Not to even start on the cheap plastics, mushy palmrest, squishy “rollcage” under the left palmrest, off-centered screen, sticking out 6 cell battery… All of those great engineering miracles, unseen before.

    No, I’m not a ThinkPad basher, in fact, I’m a long time ThinkPad user and I love those machines and I wouldn’t have bought the T400 if I didn’t. I have seen many decisions that I haven’t understood through the years, but there is a red line that should not be crossed! The keyboard is one of the legendary features that the ThinkPads reputation is built on, ones you lose it, you can scratch the whole brand.

    This last “innovation” clearly shows that Lenovo does not understand its consumers. I really hope that you will realize and correct this horrible mistake while you still have time.

    On a side note, it’s worth mentioning that the new 14.1″ Dell Latitude E6400, which I’m typing this on now (no, it’s not mine), is made of metal, has both DisplayPort and eSATA ports, and its 6-cell battery sits flush. Everyone, take a note.

  • David Hill says:
    September 3rd, 2008 8:55 am

    Point of clarity on my post. The identical approach and testing was performed on the T400 and the T500. Same human and engineering performance testing procedure we have used for over a decade.

  • wjli2 says:
    September 3rd, 2008 9:00 am

    I never tried a T400 or T500, i wish i had so i could say whether the keyboard is any better or worse than the T61p or R61i i have…. darn it.

    Lenovo next time should be more preemptive in the product marketing strategy.

  • hurt138 says:
    September 3rd, 2008 9:27 am

    You changed the keyboard? I have not tried the new keyboard, but this scares me…

  • Marc Taylor says:
    September 3rd, 2008 9:37 am

    When will see an update to the Full-Size Ultra Nav keyboard

    Bluetooh please
    Windows key

    Full size bluetooth mouse

    I hope the keyboard on my seven thousand dollar W700 is just like the keyboard on my T61p or X300 or any of the other Thinkpads I hae used for the last 20 plus years.

    Thankpads are still over all the best Notebooks

    Thank you,
    MTWIZARD

  • Stefan Constantinescu says:
    September 3rd, 2008 1:44 pm

    Here are complaints:

    http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=66541

    http://forum.notebookreview.co.....p?t=294606

    http://forum.notebookreview.co.....p?t=294577

    http://forum.notebookreview.co.....p?t=292286

    myth not busted. sorry guys. you dropped the ball on this generation.

  • sam says:
    September 3rd, 2008 2:08 pm

    very unsatisfied with the keyboard feel. again not a FLEX issue. but a FEEL issue. no machine can just come out and say YEP THIS FEELS LIKE A THINKPAD. so maybe it is just as strong but does not FEEL thinkpad strong. and whats worse is that i bet when i call to return i wil be charged restocking fee. so you save money on the keyboard and make money on restocking…. genius. my last thinkpad for sure.

  • sam says:
    September 3rd, 2008 2:09 pm

    whats worse is that htis could be fixed with a recall or replacement with OLD stock but i bet it wont happen.

  • Nicolo Menuhin says:
    September 3rd, 2008 3:09 pm

    David,
    Thanks for the post and elaborations on the extensive testings that have been conducted on the new keyboard structure.

    As a response after Lenovo has clarified their work on having a firmer keyboard structure design,
    I have to touch and try the new keyboard before I can really comment on it impartially, amidst these unfriendly reviews out there. There is one thing that I want to mention: human beings are more sensitive and susceptible in their perception than machines. And that’s why we do not test high-end violins with primarily with machines.

    I am sure if there is anything not perfectly done yet on this new implementation of keyboard (whether it is about certain parts of keyboard, the chassis itself, or how the keyboard should be attached securely on the laptop body), Lenovo’s engineering team should be able to twist and correct it as soon as possible.

    By the way, the reviewer of T400 at notebookreview.com is definitely not a Thinkpad lover himself: “…Anyone who knows the ThinkPad name knows at least two things; boring business notebook and great keyboard…”
    We know Thinkpad as much much more than ‘boring business notebook and great keyboard’. I won’t say he’s biased but definitely he is not one of those that can appreciate the design details of Thinkpad to the fullest. Also, saying that as “the end of an era” is a bit too much, I am now sure how many Thinkpad has he used as his primary workhorse, and how many generations of design changes he has experienced on the Thinkpad line.

  • Gaurav Sharma says:
    September 3rd, 2008 3:20 pm

    As an aside, I agree with Marc Taylor – you should really update the external thinkpad keyboard to include the Windows key.

    Looks like there’s 2 types of people at lenovo – those really determined to make the best engineered notebooks, and others who just can’t be bothered and are letting things slip. There’s various sorts of evidence of this (keyboard issue here, dodgey incomplete documentation on your site/PDFs, and out of date products like the external keyboard).

    Hope you guys can improve things going forwards. These things are long term, it took Dell/HP years to catch up (almost) quality-wise on their business notebooks and other than the X300 you guys are either hanging on to too much of an old good thing, or spreading yourself too thinly over too many products, both not good ideas.

    I’m typing this on a ThinkPad right now but really mean it when I say you need to borrow one trick from Apple’s book going forwards – they use the exact same, unrefuted, keyboard design in *all* their systems/accessories, excluding the soon to be replaced models.

  • William Swartzendruber says:
    September 3rd, 2008 3:43 pm

    Squishy left palmrest? My T60 has that. All you have to do is push the ExpressCard/Cardbus flap in and you have flex. Also, the early T60s had keyboard flex in the upper-left corner over the CPU.

    HOWEVER…

    My T400 keyboard feels AMAZING when it comes to key presses, BUT the thing flexes like a piece of tarp. Interestingly enough, replacing my T400 keyboard with my T60 keyboard yielded FAR better results. But for situational reasons, I had to put the T400 keyboard back in its proper machine.

    I ended up “fixing” my T400’s keyboard by stacking Post-It notes on the bottom side of it. The frame under the keyboard feels VERY rigid, but there is a natural gap between the keyboard and the frame. The flex is especially bad with the tilde (“~/`”) key.

    And what’s this about cheaper plastics? Where?

  • Snife says:
    September 3rd, 2008 3:50 pm

    I’ve used every ThinkPad and none of the T400/R400/T500/R500/W500 (8 so far) have a keyboard that feels mushy or not as strong. I really believe this is a perception issue – the same way people didn’t doubted the quality of the T60 when it came out even though it was more robust than the T40 – people tend to find whatever they are looking for so if they think the keyboard is worse then it will seem that way even if it is not physically true.

  • Mike says:
    September 3rd, 2008 4:02 pm

    I appreciate your documenting the testing process, but it misses the point entirely. This rings of the classic “engineers presume they understand HCI” because they use computers.

    If your customers are unhappy, it doesn’t make a whiff of difference how you arrived at or tested the change. Trying to argue “you are right” is absurd. The customer is always right, particularly when buying high end laptops that many of us replace on a yearly basis.

    Either Lenovo returns to its original keyboard design — your engineers’ logic be damned — or it will continue to lose market share.

    The only reasonable thing to do is here is issue an apology, say the change was made in good faith, and return to the original design. (Please tell me someone there has been to business school.)

    I have almost a dozen old Thinkpads in my closet and I’m afraid my T60P is going to become the last of them.

  • ThinkPad T400 and T500 Keyboard Stiffness: Myth Busted | www.thinkpadtoday.com says:
    September 3rd, 2008 4:05 pm

    [...] http://lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/?p=228 [...]

  • R.A. says:
    September 3rd, 2008 4:22 pm

    David,

    it is all good about stiffer by 0.03mm keyboards,
    but look at LG’s R510. It is already second generation of 15.4″ notebooks with 100-key (with numpad) keyboard.

    15.4″ widescreeen notebooks are wide enough to have keyboard with numerical pad. Why Lenovo stick to 89-key keyboards?

  • Klaus says:
    September 3rd, 2008 4:49 pm

    Nicolo: I don’t agree on your opinion. In my eyes, the reviewer is definitely a ThinkPad user, and the thing about “boring business notebook” is not his opinion, at least not in a negative way. He’s talking about what OTHERS know about ThinkPad, and he just wants to make clear that the good keyboard is THE good thing that nearly everyone knows about the ThinkPad.

    And I also don’t think it’s perception. As I said before: The reviewer wrote that he FIRST noticed flex, and THEN he opened up the keyboard and looked what’s wrong.

    Also, keep in mind that Lenovo DID actually change something about the keyboard. It is not the same anymore, that’s for sure (and they admit that), so why should all those numerous people suddenly think the same way? You don’t know if they have ALL really read the review before…

  • Klaus says:
    September 3rd, 2008 4:58 pm

    Also, if it’s really worse quality, that “myth busting” stuff is really a step into the WRONG DIRECTION.

    Because if it’s really an inferior keyboard, Lenovo will be one step farther away of just admitting they have done the wrong thing and shipping the old keyboards again. So they might have just sealed their “we won’t switch back”-decision.

    Also, I’m not sure if I should believe this: “It was not done as a cost saving play.”

    Then, if it’s not because of cost or weight saving – what exactly was the reason? You already have the BEST KEYBOARD, and everybody loves it. Everybody. Read it again: EVERYBODY. Why would you ever have the reason to even change the slightiest bit of it? Why? There MUST be a reason for this change. If you have the perfect thing, there’s no need to change or improve anything, because the perfect thing simply can’t be improved. Also, if you’d really have researched for a better keyboard, you would have stated that right from the beginning! But this “a week after the first people experienced our new cost-saved keyboard”-blog post sounds more like a lame excuse.

    Myth busted. Indeed. The Big ThinkPad Myth seems to be finally busted.

  • Jon says:
    September 3rd, 2008 7:43 pm

    When a bunch of people come up with the same complaint independently, it’s time to admit they’re right and look at the problem.

    The test you describe is static, nobody presses a key down for a minute. Another factor is the different bending modes the keyboard goes thru, whether the surface twists rather than deflecting downwards. Some may be more noticeable than others. A proper test would be to measure the keyboard deflection at many points while a single key was struck.

  • LukeD says:
    September 3rd, 2008 10:10 pm

    Nicolo Menuhin,

    You are completely wrong.

    The reviewer at NotebookReview.com is the biggest lover and supporter of ThinkPads. You need to spend some time on that site. The staff at NotebookReview.com use ThinkPads exclusively.

    No other website has given more support and praise to ThinkPads than NotebookReview.com.

    When they say that there is a problem, it is time to take notice.

  • john murphy says:
    September 4th, 2008 1:49 am

    I am a huge fan of ThinkPad’s but I have to put my foot down on this one. the new T400/500 keyboards are far less satisfying in every day use. I would highly recommend re-evaluating your process by incorporating more human beings into the evaluation process.

  • Khalifa says:
    September 4th, 2008 2:38 am

    Agree with Mike Lenovo should issue an apology and immediately go back to the solid keyboard and I’m afraid too that my T61 will be my last Thinkpad.

  • paul says:
    September 4th, 2008 4:05 am

    The worst keyboard flex I’ve ever seen in a Thinkpad was in some models of the 760 series. They fixed that completely in the 770 which was rock solid and cooler running, though larger. I don’t know whether customer reaction was involved or what.

    Aside from keyboard flex, there has been quite a bit of variation between models (and maybe between units of a given model, since I think IBM and Lenovo have both multi-sourced keyboards) of the feel of the keys themselves (amount of force needed to actuate a key, and the stiffness of the stop at the bottom of the travel). I like rather light force and a soft stop at the bottom, since I type a LOT and am prone to repetitive stress injuries. My old A20p keyboard was noticably stiffer than my even older 770, and it bugged me. The two Lenovos I’ve tried (my officemate’s 3000 V200 and my recently acquired T61) are a noticable improvement over the A20p. I’ve since replaced the A20p with an A22p but wasn’t paying close attention to the keyboard feel so am not sure if it changed.

    The BEST notebook keyboards EVER were on the ancient Toshiba models like the T1000, T1200+ and so forth. They were full travel, sculptured keys like on a good desktop keyboard, with a smooth, soft touch. Also, those laptops had a low, sloping front so the keyboard was at a more ergonomic angle than modern notebooks which keep the keyboard flat because they put electronics under it. Maybe the future low-end notebook will have small electronics again, so it can return to that keyboard design.

    Anyway, this T400/500 situation doesn’t sound promising, though I haven’t tried those machines yet. Does anyone know if the X200 is affected? I agree with Mike and Khalifa that real human user reaction is much better than some lab test to check out how a keyboard feels, and that if the T61 design is working well, don’t mess with it.

  • Jon Pritchard says:
    September 4th, 2008 7:28 am

    It’s good to hear an official response regarding the reported keyboard issues but as many have already said, there is a vocal minority reporting these issues and I think there has to be some grain of truth in that. It’s certainly made me think twice about buying a Thinkpad this generation. I suggest you address all the things that have come to light in the multiple reviews.

    - Battery wobble
    - ThinkLight hood not long enough to shield the light from user’s eyes.
    - Loss of keyboard stiffness!

    When I go around the shops looking for a laptop I just press firmly on the keyboard twice. On my T41p I get no budget whatsoever. It is a dream to type. I hope to buy a replacement from you but you’re really not giving me anything that I want to buy. Where’s the T300? Excuse the side point but I don’t see Lenovo offering an answer on that one.

  • Ex Thinkpad 1st Line Support Techie says:
    September 4th, 2008 11:00 am

    What I would like to know what’s happened to the plastics on the Thinkpad T Series after T4x range
    and onwards…

    Having worked on first line support at Lenovo I can remember a known issue regarding the plastics for the X61 laptops where the corners of the LCD panel/ bezel where crumbling away, also users were reporting hairline fractures on the bottom of plastic chassis, this is not the same plastics used in the old I.B.M manufactured Thinkpads.

    I have noticed that the plastics on the new Thinkpad X300 /X200 are of excellent quality, can someone please confirm if the new Thinkpad T500 / 400 have the same chassis / plastics ?

    Overall, Lenovo Thinkpads are great machines and support is really good with 3 years Next Business Day on Site or Depot option.

  • Jakob says:
    September 4th, 2008 3:05 pm

    I got my T 400 on Tuesday. The keyboard is fine and comfortable, however if i press down hard than it bends in as well as the sides where the Card Reader and the DVD Player is.

    However I am happy with it overall and like it.

  • wjli2 says:
    September 5th, 2008 1:58 am

    Ex Thinkpad 1st Line Support Techie:

    Okay let me list the sort of materials that were used by IBM Thinkpads:

    -Titanium Composite (super expensive) mostly in earlier thinkpads

    -Magnesium Alloy

    Bottom cover:
    -Magnesium Alloy
    -ABS plastic

    Lenovo thinkpads (Cover material):
    -Carbon fiber reinforced plastic
    -Magnesium Alloy
    -ABS

    Bottom cover:
    -ABS
    -Magnesium Alloy

    ABS plastic is still the same one pressed by Foxconn using Mitsubishi ABS plastic. The only difference would be the molding and edging, the thickness should be about the same.

  • Snife says:
    September 5th, 2008 2:53 am

    Ex Thinkpad 1st Line Support Techie – I can only imagine you didn’t work in Level 1 for long, back in the IBM days there were just as many plastic problems, the plastic itself is not worse quality but every now and then you can get bad batches or unknown situations (hinge grease coroding the plastic) that aren’t obvious during testing. The corners of the X61 tablet were one such batch issue – they did not affect a large number of systems at all.

  • paulxu` says:
    September 5th, 2008 3:03 am

    After reading almost all posts on this page, should I feel happy or sad about my second ThinkPad?… T400.

    Though I haven’t used a lot of laptops myself, Thinkpad for sure is better than others after using other brands of my colleagues’ or friends’ notebooks for maybe a short while, no matter the quality, feeling of typing, design and prompt service, though not in USA. It’s second to none.

  • Klaus says:
    September 5th, 2008 6:48 am

    @ paulxu`

    You shouldn’t feel happy or sad after all those posts, you should just feel happy or sad after using the keyboard. Do you feel it’s the same quality as in your first ThinkPad? Or is it inferior? Or maybe superior?

  • Paul says:
    September 5th, 2008 9:40 am

    David,
    I dare to highly disagree with you. While your machine and computer tests might have led to the same keyboard measurements, in the end the customer is the one who decides on the product.
    And to be honest, Thinkpad keyboards vary dramatically, and are not always superb. Someone who has worked on a 600x and had to upgrade to a T20 was in miserable keyboard purgatory. The T2x keyboards were mushy and spongy!
    The T4x keyboards were a pure typer’s dream!
    We got a load of T400’s today in the office and I don’t want to insult anybody, but we were close to dump the whole load back to UPS. Such a disappointment!!!
    Finally a colleague of mine figured out that the great T60 keyboards seem to fit nicely.
    We probably will order a truckload of T60 keyboards now. Who do we have to contact at Lenovo to get a reimbursement on a palette of T400 keyboards? They are new and never used…

  • Henrique says:
    September 5th, 2008 10:38 am

    Well, I have a design-perfect T43 (perfect thermal response, perfect behaviour, well cared for).

    The keyboard is marvelous. I cannot complain at all, you simply cannot feel it flexing at all while touch-typing. And it doesn’t have those blasted Windows keys, so CTRL and ALT are of the proper side (why the fuck waste space near the spacebar for keys that are NEVER used during any sort of work at all? They should have added them to the top row).

    I did the “fringe flex test”. It flexes ~0.5mm on the corners if I press too strongly. No big deal, that simply doesn’t happen during normal usage. And I won’t be pressing it there repeatedly just to weaken the keyboard ;-)

    If the majority of the T400s out there are the same (it does flex, but you simply can’t feel it while using), that shouldn’t be an issue at all.

    @Jacob:

    Does the above describes what happens in your T400? You can flex it if you try, but normal use simply doesn’t cause it to flex?

  • Think User says:
    September 5th, 2008 2:59 pm

    Received my T500 today… Dont know what all the fuss is about with the keyboard, I am more than happy with it!. Yeah if you press >>>HARD<<< to the left hand side area on the keyboard you can feel flexing. Having owned previous Thinkpads I am happy that it runs cooler. Also, may i point out… most of the heat from Thinkpads is around this area where the CPU and heatsink / fan are located.

    I think that this is a part of the design to allow better cooling, After running the machine for several hours a can say that the keyboard area is much cooler by far.

    If anything can be improved… Lenovo should use the same plastics on the new T500 range as found on the new X300 models.

  • Troels Oesteraa says:
    September 5th, 2008 6:52 pm

    Mr. Hill,

    When you said stiffer chassis, do you mean the lower half of the thinkpad, i.e. including rollcage, fan etc, or is this chassis the “frame” or the corner of the keyboard, where the metal bends upwards?

    If it is the former, I have a bit of a hard time realising how removing surface material will increase or even retain downward rigidity. When a key is pressed, the pressure must be absorbed and resisted by less material.
    I could see a point if bottom of the keyboard was thickened at the same time while removing mass, since this creates a more rigid body towards downward forces. Or?

    @ 29, R.A.:
    IMO 15.4″ Is a pretty useless size when it comes to use all the available space for keyboard. It leaves too much space at the sides with a conventional keyboard, or becomes cluttered and useless with a numpad. You gotta be kidding about the layout of the R510. It works of course, but it is pretty compromised.
    Perhaps they just screwed up the R510 keyboards here though… different layout.

  • William Swartzendruber says:
    September 5th, 2008 11:32 pm

    AFAIK, the X200’s top and bottom casings are magnesium, along with an internal cage.

  • Adam says:
    September 6th, 2008 12:43 am

    I just received my new T400 today. My old laptop was a T41. The keyboards are not the same. I’m pissed. I unboxed my T400 not more than two hours ago, completely unaware of this keyboard controversy, and as soon as my fingers hit the keyboard I was disappointed.

    David Hill’s post is about key*board* stiffness — my complaint is about key stiffness. There is much less “pop” on the T400 making the keys feel mushy, which I hate. I don’t know if this phenomenon is due to the overall stiffness of the board, or if they’ve changed the material or mechanism allowing the key to press and depress, but there is a very noticeable difference.

    There main reason I bought a Thinkpad was because I knew (thought) “Thinkpad” meant “quality”. I’m don’t work in IT, but I know my current Thinkpad is second hand, runs great*, and its keyboard makes other laptops seem cheap despite their slick styling. Needless to say, I was excited about my T400. Now I’ll be returning it.

    If it was just the keyboard, I can’t say for sure if I would be returning it, but I certainly wouldn’t be happy about my purchase — a Thinkpad with a cheap-feeling keyboard is still a little better than a Dell, in my opinion. However, my T400 also shipped with a dead pixel in its screen.

    If it were just a dead pixel, or just an inferior keyboard, I probably wouldn’t go through the hassle of returning the product, but having both problems crosses the line.

    I consider myself loyal to a fault and three hours ago I was completely loyal to Thinkpads — earlier today I actually said the words “legendary keyboard” to a friend in anticipation for my T400 — but after this experience I can’t justify giving my money to Lenovo when other cheaper alternatives exist.

    I’ll be watching this thread over the weekend, so if anyone has any questions I’ll be sure to answer them.

    *The reason I’m replacing my T41 is because the screen gave out over the summer. I was able to “fix” it by re-seating the connectors on the inverter board, but I can’t be sure how permanent this fix is. As a law student, I can’t afford to have my screen go out in the middle of the semester, or worse, during finals.

  • Buster says:
    September 6th, 2008 4:53 am

    Dear sir,

    There has also been complaints of the Samsung lcd panel being of low quality in comparison to the LG panel. Lenovo support could not tell me which panel my T400 was going to have in it(I am waiting on the order). Can you comment on this?

  • Peter says:
    September 6th, 2008 2:12 pm

    Unfortunately I always tend to buy comments of the reviewer instead of assurance from the company selling the product.

  • Adam says:
    September 6th, 2008 7:19 pm

    Both T400 + T500 have inferior its confirmed and its sad!

  • Nicolo Menuhin says:
    September 6th, 2008 8:41 pm

    It is true that the reviewer at NotebookReview.com has given very positive review to all of the keyboards of Thinkpad laptops in the past. I have more trust on the reviewer on NotebookReview.com after I have checked his past reviews. However, I am not sure if he is as experienced as many of the Thinkpad lovers and engineers here.

    Here is something I found at Thinkpad forum, when a forum member questioned if X200 (which utilizes the same new keyboard chassis) demonstrates similar keyboard flex that is discovered in the new T-series:
    [...
    I asked the same question about keyboard flex at Notebookreview.com and got this response:

    Keyboard comments:
    I noticed the design of the key was much the same of the Tseries. I have to say that it feels pretty darn solid. The keyboard feels great and there isn't any major weak spot. I think the "worse" flex" is if you hit the Fn the shift, capslock, and ctrl keys right next to it SLIGHTLY depress. VERY slightly. If flexing is an issue with the x200, then the keyboard should not be of worry. There is more flex on the top of the screen near where it is attached (near the center). I am not sure why the keyboard does not exhibit the same issue as the tseries but it might just be that the chassis itself is thinner and the keyboard is supported by the main body of the laptop itself.
    ...]
    As seen in the above post about the firmness of new keyboard on an X200, I hope that Lenovo has just stumbled a little bit in the implementation of this new keyboard in the new T-series, and some other details of this new keyboard structure.

    In this case, Lenovo developers have an intention to make their legendary keyboard even better and more legendary, and they exhibited innovations and their painstaking engineering problem solving skills. So, I am inclined to support Lenovo in this move – if you are just staying at the same place, don’t innovate and don’t improve, then things are not going to be better. Lenovo, equipped with the Thinkpad design team, as the leading business laptop design firm especially in the aspect of keyboard in which they have set the standard, is absolutely qualified to carry out this project to revolve their keyboard structure.

    For sure Thinkpad fans are going to whip Lenovo hard to keep up the standards, and to have Lenovo from time to time forge innovations, surprises, and magics into their new beloved black Bentoo-shape tools for warring in various environments.

  • Bink says:
    September 6th, 2008 9:06 pm

    I just bought a new T400 and am quite pleased with it. HOWEVER, David Hill, THE KEYBOARD DOES HAVE A BIT OF SPRING TO IT. Perhaps there is a manufacturing or chassis issue, but when I am using this keyboard, the first thoughts that come to my mind are definitely not “very strong and rigid.” I highly recommend you spend a little time looking beyond your “real people” and performance testing, pickup a T400 for yourself and give it a spin. When you’re done, feel free to contact me about the “new new” redesigned replacement keyboard you will be sending that does not exhibit these issues.

    By the way, the keyboard on my current non-Lenovo notebook appears to be far stronger and more rigid.

    Cheers. Myth Confirmed.

  • LukeD says:
    September 6th, 2008 10:21 pm

    wjli2,

    Just to clarify your earlier post, all T Series from the T61 onward have a polycarbonate plastic cover, not a carbon fiber plastic.

    While Lenovo writers had advertised carbon fiber plastic early on when the T61 had come out, they had later changed it to polycarbonate plastic.

    The carbon fiber plastic has only been used in the X300 and X301 ThinkPads.

  • wjli2 says:
    September 7th, 2008 4:50 am

    LukeD, my things were not listed in order. I think it is ABS plastic and not polycarbonate. But i am not sure on that one, i am just judging from i can see from outside, i never took apart a Thinkpad top cover assembly.

  • Klaus says:
    September 7th, 2008 6:52 am

    @ Nicolo, what are you talking about?

    “However, I am not sure if he is as experienced as many of the Thinkpad lovers and engineers here.”

    You certainly don’t have to be experienced to notice that a keyboard is flexing. This can even be experienced by a small child.

  • Klaus says:
    September 7th, 2008 6:55 am

    @ Nicolo: Sorry, submitted too early. I also wanted to write this:

    “So, I am inclined to support Lenovo in this move – if you are just staying at the same place, don’t innovate and don’t improve, then things are not going to be better.”

    The question is: Why should they improve, and why should they make things better, when the keyboard IS already the BEST on the market? It is praised and loved by every user, and you simply can’t make it better if it’s alredy perfect.

    Okay, maybe it CAN theoretically even get better. I’ll admit that. But it seems like it DIDN’T get better, if nearly everyone is complaining who has alredy got his hands on one of the new keyboards. It got worse. So, if they want to make it better – okay, they may do it. But they should clearly NOT make it WORSE, which they did.

    So how can you say you “support Lenovo on this move”? You can support them on the idea of wanting to improve things – if this was really their true intent (I don’t think so). But you can’t support them on the move to make an inferior keyboard.

  • LukeD says:
    September 7th, 2008 2:40 pm

    Thanks, Wjli2!

    It is definitely hard to tell with the rubberized paint on the exterior.

  • ThinkPad lover says:
    September 9th, 2008 2:11 am

    I run a small company, and I used to procure the T-series Thinkpads for my office workers’ fleet. The T60/T61 got rave reviews from my firm’s evaluation staff; everyone marveled at the keyboard in particular. Previously we had used the T43 so we had years of experience with the Thinkpad brand. I’m not talking about a user or two. I’m talking about hundreds of evaluations from workers using this laptop model 6-8 hours a day for productivity tasks.

    I read reviews slamming the T400/T500 keyboard, so I procured a few and my colleagues and I tested it. I even had my IT staffer have at it for a week–he used to do Lenovo warranty support at a third party computer center, so he knows the anatomy of a Thinkpad T-series as well as anybody.

    Here’s the bottom line. In my line of business, we squeeze productivity out of every hour. My firm’s margins are predicated upon everyone contributing, and everyone thus being happy with their work equipment. And so far everyone thinks the new keyboards SUCK. They hate it. It’s not like it’s flexing inches and inches, but every single review I got from somebody who used it several days–and they have been circulating now amongst my workers for weeks–said the keyboard was of worse quality than the T60/T61 models. More flex, keys didn’t feel as solid, etc.

    Yeah, sure. This is all subjective. Lenovo engineered these keyboards to be perfect and I just must be a Thinkpad hater, right? Ha. We have purchased hundreds of Thinkpads over the last decade to fuel our in-house computing equipment. We loved Thinkpads. We loved them because we could type away knowing our hands were touching something solid, and our keyboard wouldn’t bend and flex up like those crappy Dells or Toshibas or Compaqs that we saw our colleagues downstairs using. I personally own several T60s and an X61. Now we hate the new Thinkpads. We hate them because when we have to type 6-8 hours a day, rapidly and quickly, in an environment full of thick data and multiple inputs, and not a single person who’s used the new T400/T500 line has a positive thing to say about the keyboard.

    I’m sorry, Lenovo. Call me a hater, but this hater has years of experience using, procuring, and interacting with users who used and procured these notebooks. Not a single positive review from my firm about your new keyboards. And unless the situation changes, we are going to look at some of the new Dells. The keyboards are just as bad, but they’re cheaper and of rising quality. I just do not think, at this rate, I feel comfortable sinking our capital into a declining product.

    My 2 cents from the workplace trenches.

  • David Cohen says:
    September 9th, 2008 2:44 am

    As a matter of fact, the review done by NBR is not that shabby, just have a look at the pros and cons and you’ll agree.
    And to those who wish to buy another laptop, I guess you’ve just noticed more than the cheaper keyboard to move to another brand ’cause you’ll be surprised by the fact that other bands have really poor stuff in comparison to Thinpad…
    Maybe the LG S510 can stand the comparison, let’s see when he’ll be available in the US.

  • Timothy says:
    September 9th, 2008 9:40 pm

    Lenovo is playing with fire!

  • Harpyeagle says:
    September 10th, 2008 12:48 am

    Lenovo

    Please tell us that you’ll be changing the keyboards in the T400/500 series after we told you how we felt about these…After all, keyboards = thinkpad reputation. I don’t want to buy any other lappy other than a thinkpad, but i do not want to buy it in its current state either – I AM STUCK!

  • Andrea says:
    September 10th, 2008 3:39 am

    Put Back the old keyborad please.
    It was the the best keyboard ever.

    Will not buy a thinkpad without a rock solid keyboard.

  • Klaus says:
    September 10th, 2008 5:00 am

    Yeah I hope so… but as far as I’d assume, Lenovo won’t apologize and please their customers, they’ll rather be continuing busting myths.

    Myths that are actually truths.

    I wonder if some IBM people are crying when they’re reading that stuff here.

  • qzing says:
    September 10th, 2008 6:24 am

    This just might be the last straw for some Thinkpad loyalists.

    I’ve had several Thinkpads over the years, an A21m, a T30, a T43 and an X61. As an IT professional and a gamer, I’ve had to compromise and settle for the generally outdated GPUs that IBM/Lenovo tend to use in their Thinkpad models, in favor of a more solid keyboard and of course, the Trackpoint. These two features are what have mainly kept me coming back to the brand and after reading the reviews and comments by users, I too fear that my current Thinkpad will be my last.

    It’s sad to see that Lenovo decided to “fix” something that didn’t need fixing (as another commenter said, EVERYBODY loved their keyboards) but it’s even sadder to see that instead of acknowledging that their redesign may not what users want, they are opting to dig in their heels and post “mythbusting” articles in an effort to dismiss the comments by their loyal users.

    Lenovo’s competitors are becoming quite proficient at offering more powerful models, with comparable build quality, at much lower prices. I guess it may be time to move on…

  • Jessy says:
    September 10th, 2008 6:46 pm

    I just scrapped my plans to replace my T43

  • xB says:
    September 11th, 2008 6:50 am

    I just heard that Lenovo will not sell Linux notebooks anymore. I think that is very very sad. I believe the choice of the operating system is as much a design questing as the hardware itself. I am using Linux on my X61 since 1 year now. And the huge development since then is amazing. Instead of stopping the sale of Linux on your laptops you should support those people writing Linux drivers for Thinkpads to ensure a wider support. My next notebook will definitely be one without Windows and it would be sad if I had to buy at a different vendor.

  • Mike says:
    September 11th, 2008 11:15 am

    I too was about to purchase a T400. I use a T60 at work and am very fond of this machine. The T400 looked like a good machine for my personal use (batterylife, LED screen, etc.).

    It is very disturbing to me that Lenovo would mess with the main attribute (keyboard) that sells their laptop computers. One doesn’t fix what is not broken. Post number 60 put me over the edge. The T400 is not in my future. What a shame…

  • Michael says:
    September 12th, 2008 1:15 am

    The X200 uses the exact same keyboard as the T400, yet there are no complaints of flex in the X-series. Read the review here:

    http://www.notebookreview.com/.....ewsID=4497

    All other reviews I’ve found mention no problems with the X200 keyboard either. I believe Lenovo did have good intentions with the new design. However, the chassis of the X200 seems better suited for the new keyboard design than the T400. David Hill mentions that the new keyboard design must rely on a stiffer chassis, to the benefit of reduced weight. So it appears that the new design DOES work on the X200, but sadly not as well on the T400.

    I realize this kind of discrepancy is unacceptable, especially to the ThinkPad crowd, but people should give Lenovo some credit for their engineering feats. Although, I do hope Lenovo can remedy this issue and find a better way to implement their new keyboard design. Thanks for reading this.
    -Michael

  • JaLooNz says:
    September 12th, 2008 5:47 am

    Why don’t they offer a free replacement program for those who want the old keyboards? It will be a good way to fix this issue.

  • Klaus says:
    September 12th, 2008 5:57 am

    GOOD NEWS WITH THE KEYBOARD!

    Folks… we, like most of the reviewers here and a forum.thinkpads.com and thinkpad-forum.de, do not like the new T400 keyboard at all.
    The best keyboard on the market right now is the T60/T61 keyboard.

    T60 KEYBOARD FITS INTO THE T400 !! You can order the T61 keyboard and put it into the new T400. All problems solved.
    Dear Lenovo team, please can we the T60/61 keyboard as an option when ordering our new Thinkpads, please !

  • Henrique says:
    September 12th, 2008 9:12 am

    I was thinking about this issue, and I’d like someone who does have a T400 or T500 on hand to test the key flex (not keyboard frame test).

    After all, what people is complaining about their feeling when you type in a T400 or T500 might not be a problem of the keyboard *plate* flexing, but rather of the key mechanisms themselves being somewhat “squishy” when fully depressed. And it is easy to check this…

    If you don’t mind removing the keyboard and placing it on a rigid, smooth and flat surface (do it carefully, properly, and following the Hardware Maintenance Manual and it should not violate your warranty) taking care to NOT damage the connections, you can check if you still feel awkward typing on it.

    If you feel any flex on the keyboard even when it is lying on a rigid, flat surface, it means the problem is not on the new “lighter” keyboard frame (which can’t flex anymore, since it is fully seated on the surface), but rather on the keys themselves.

    Anyone would care to do this test? Depending on how Lenovo did the measuring of the keyboard flex in their robot-based test, it would not detect such changes in the tactile feedback of the keys.

  • Henrique says:
    September 12th, 2008 9:18 am

    @xB:

    AFAIK, Lenovo still sells ThinkPads with Linux. You can’t get them through the WWW site, but the other channels will still sell them.

    In fact, it is usually a good idea to call the direct sales on the phone to check if they can’t improve your custom web-made configuration a bit ;-) Sometimes they have access to stuff that is not on sale on the web…

  • Braden says:
    September 12th, 2008 4:36 pm

    I don’t think that the keyboard itself is flexing. I think the problem is the feel of the individual keyswitches/membranes is different.

    This has historically varied across OEMs for the keyboard FRU – there are three different FRUs made by three different companies, and each feels different. This was even the case on the T4x series.

    I’d like to get my hands on each of the FRUs for the W/T500 and see how they feel, as I have very sensitive fingers for this. I’ve already swapped my W500’s keyboard for the one from my T60p because the W500 pissed me off, it felt too mushy/soft to me…

  • Michael says:
    September 12th, 2008 8:15 pm

    Alright, now the discussion is going somewhere. Saying “the T400 sucks” or “screw you, Lenovo” doesn’t add much.

    You guys could be right about the problem lying in the individual keys, but then again, X200 reviews mention no such issue. Hopefully someone can test out Henrique’s idea. And yes, you can use the old T60/T61 keyboards with the current model. You can easily find them on eBay or online – just make sure the seller can confirm the part number. People generally prefer the NMB keyboards, so here they are for the T60 and T61:

    39T0958
    42T3143

    If you want to know where I’m coming from, I personally use the old 600X – rock solid keyboard and very reliable. I’m hoping to upgrade to an X200 in the near future.

  • Paolo Alexis Falcone says:
    September 13th, 2008 12:44 am

    I’ll be skipping out on the current T and W series, until Lenovo fixes the problem with the chassis. If the X200/X301 keyboard does not flex even with the same keyboard design as with the T/W/R series, then probably it’s the chassis that’s at fault here.

  • Jack says:
    September 13th, 2008 2:18 am

    Please, please, please fix the flex. I don’t care if some machine says this keyboard is better; subjective human experience tells me the keyboard has to much flex.

    Don’t tell your customers they are wrong. Clearly there are enough unhappy ones right now.

  • JJ says:
    September 13th, 2008 9:44 am

    Good thing there’s a solution to the keyboard. Too bad for me(or maybe those who may not be technically competent), I’ll wait till something better comes up.

  • wjli2 says:
    September 13th, 2008 10:23 am

    @Paolo Alexis Falcone, there is no problem with the T/W/R chassis but it is whether the current ‘one size fits all’ keyboard is properly matched with the T/W/R chassis.

  • Khalifa says:
    September 13th, 2008 7:03 pm

    Depending on Lenovo’s reply many ThinkPad customers will know how to proceed from this point including my self obviously there is a major problem and new keyboards are inferior and Lenovo saying Keyboard Stiffness: Myth Busted isn’t going to solve this problem.

  • Ralph says:
    September 15th, 2008 1:18 am

    I’ve been a loyal ThinkPad user for over 12 years, and I must tell you that the T series line comming out of Lenovo now is pure trash in terms of quality. The cheap low grade feel of the plastic arm rest is HORRIBLE to say the least when combined with the flexing crappy quality and feel of the keyboard.

    I’ve just now ordered a T61 NMB keyboard to see if this will fix SOME of my problems. If not I will just look to return this thing and get a Dell E6400.

  • Zach says:
    September 15th, 2008 2:40 am

    Thanks for giving us a forum to comment on this issue, David. I know Lenovo wants to make its computers the best possible, and I hope this is a case where everyone is listening. While I trust Lenovo was genuinely trying to make a better keyboard, the customers who really care about the tactile feel of the keyboard have spoken and they aren’t satisfied. I would have ordered a T400 the day it came out had it not been for the keyboard issue. Typing is my life. Literally. I’m paid by the page. Anyway, really looking forward to an LED screen, but I can’t justify the move until I begin to hear reports of the keyboard being as good as or better than the T60. I have an NMB and it’s the best thing I’ve ever typed on. Just sayin’. :)

  • Klaus says:
    September 15th, 2008 5:13 am

    Some Lenovo marketing guy once said:

    “If you liked your ThinkPad from IBM, you will LOOOOVE your ThinkPad from Lenovo”

  • Snife says:
    September 15th, 2008 9:04 am

    I do kinda agree, the more I use the new T400, the more I do notice some instability on the left hand side. That said, I dont think any other manufacturers are producing anything better so its not something that would make me switch although it would be nice if Lenovo recognised it and changed it just to keep everyone happy.

  • Shani says:
    September 15th, 2008 10:43 am

    There is clearly flex in the T series. That this is less of an issue in the X200 is apparently due to the different build of that laptop which gives some different support to that same keyboard. Either way, that Lenovo is trying to ride out the comaplaints says a lot on how little they know about marketing. These things tend to take on a life of their own (see the so-called defective intel processor that in reality didn’t make a difference but caused much bad PR until Intel broke down and replaced it). I would advise Lenovo to learn from history and change this before they suffer more of a PR damage. They are presumably trying to build their brand and convince people that they are as good even though they are made in China. This is no way to accomplish that.

  • wjli2 says:
    September 15th, 2008 2:27 pm

    @shani, regarding your last comment about the ‘Made In China’ stuff, IBM Thinkpad have been made in China for sometimes before IBM divested from the Thinkpad brand. So…

  • Tommy says:
    September 15th, 2008 3:11 pm

    wjli2

    made in china or made in hell i don’t care during IBM days Thinkpads were rock solid without cheap plastics & inferior keyboards.

  • wjli2 says:
    September 16th, 2008 12:29 am

    Tommy personally i don’t care for your over the top exaggeration. If you owned a couple of Thinkpads, then you would know that IBM Thinkpads have their problems too. T30 has a high failure rate in one of the ram slot. T4x has a problem of broken usb slot, detaching GPU, etc. If you hold the T4x in of the corner with the screen open, the laptop actually warps slightly due to the lack of internal rollcage. The same is not true of the T6x or R6x even, which has an internal roll cage.

    So the question here is do you like an exoskeleton like those of a bug, or do you like the endoskeleton that you have now. Though that the bugs don’t get sick as easily as the human does, and it has been around for eons longer than human.

  • sunil says:
    September 16th, 2008 1:08 am

    While he was unecessarily vague, I’m inclined to agree with Tommy… Acknowledging that a Thinkpad(or any computer) has never been flawless,Lenovo seems to have hurt the design of their latest T-series lineup in what I -right or wrong- assume to be in an effort to minimize costs in keyboard production. While it is remarkable that this keyboard is supposed to be more productive and weight-efficient, to the users posting above me, the issue seems to have never been weight among thinkpad users… To me (and I assume to everyone else), the label “Thinkpad” promises a solid and tactile keyboard and a solid, resilient chassis.

    It really bothers me that a company such as Lenovo, that takes so much heat from more “trendy” consumers for having an “ugly” appearance is now cutting corners in the qualities that define their brand of laptop.

    Politically-correct or not, the cynical “made in China” comment is justified so long as Lenovo fails to acknowledge/fix the problem that the T chassis is having with this newfangled keyboard. Users shouldn’t have to buy an extra frickin T61 keyboard to get what once came in a matte-black package of awesome.

  • Klaus says:
    September 16th, 2008 2:51 am

    Yes, the old IBMs may also have had their problems, but now everything was perfect (see T6x and R6x series). And if everything is perfect, why should someone now change the keyboard, to make it non-perfect again?

    “Finally, people, we have created the perfect laptop.”
    “What? Perfect?! We can’t sell that! Perfect laptops are a myth!”
    “Okay, let’s fµck up the keyboard then”
    “Myth busted!”

  • Tommy says:
    September 16th, 2008 3:24 am

    wjli2

    bla bla bla

    At first i can assure you that i owned more Thinkpads than you! and If you are saying that Lenovo Thinkpads are better in quality than IBM Thinkpads then you are fooling your self and you know nothing about Thinkpads!

  • xB says:
    September 16th, 2008 6:25 am

    Dear Lenovo Team,

    obviously comments are moderated, so you sould read every comment. With new complaints about the keyboards comming everyday I wonder why no moderator has pasted a statement as how lenovo thinks about this yet? Including the community doesnt only mean to provide a forum, it also means to have moderators actually take part in the discussion, so we the community see that Lenovo is taking us serious.

    Regards
    xB

  • Klaus says:
    September 16th, 2008 7:19 am

    @ xB:

    As far as I’ve observed so far, Lenovo staff only answers to positive comments or to neutral questions (those like “when will they be available?” or “will it have the XYZ cpu?”).

    I’ve never seen an answer to a complaint. Whether it’s about the keyboard, the red stripes, or the SL series, they just don’t give answers towards negative comments. Maybe they simply don’t know what to say. And if they’re doing mythbusting blog posts like this one, it only leads them further away from being honest and apologizing.

  • Jketzetera says:
    September 16th, 2008 9:13 am

    Michael,

    You were saying that the X200 uses the exact same keyboard as the T400. Do you mean that that the keyboard from a T400 unit is interchangeable with a keyboard from an X200 unit? Or did you mean that both keyboards feature perforated bottom metal plates?

  • wjli2 says:
    September 16th, 2008 11:31 am

    Something Tommy you seemed to have owned more Thinkpads then i ever had, then you would have known about all the problems that existed in the IBM Thinkpads.

    You say you know alot about Thinkpads, then please do inform us about it, you say you know about it means zilch to everyone else. We don’t want a snakeoil salesman here. Unless you can substantiate your over the top claims, please don’t waste our time.

  • T400 says:
    September 16th, 2008 12:34 pm

    Reports of my flex have been greatly exaggerated.

  • Tommy says:
    September 16th, 2008 12:52 pm

    wjli2

    When you say that IBM Thinkpads had problems of course they did they are made by people not gods however when you compare them to today’s Thinkpads and find no difference in quality this definitely means 2 things either you never used an IBM Thinkpad before or that you are being paid by Lenovo, after years of abusing my beloved IBM T41P is in much better shape than my 1 year old Lenovo T61 with replaced MB anyhow all people here are Lenovo customers and they are complaining about the inferior keyboard and the declining quality of Thinkpads if you are very happy with the new Keyboard go and celebrate somewhere else you don’t belong here!

  • wjli2 says:
    September 16th, 2008 2:03 pm

    Tommy, if you care to read people’s comment i neither praised the keyboard nor do i criticised it. I was addressing the comments made by ’shani’, before you decided to jump in some mindless comments of your own. FYI i have owned T60, T61p, R61i, X60, X31, T40 and a T43. I never said any of the comments that you are claiming as of now, so please don’t make it up. As i have said unless you can substantiate your claim, there is no point crappping on. If i am getting paid by Lenovo, then obviously they are not paying enough for my service.

    Tommy so you think you own this website or Lenovo???

    So by your own admission that Thinkpads are made by human and not gods, which therefore means that laptop whether under IBM or Lenovo can and will break. Just because your T61 had MB trouble, doesn’t mean that every T61 have the same motherboard problems. It would be equally stupid for a T4x customer whom has a broken motherboard to claim that his/her laptop is the worst Thinkpad that IBM has ever made.

    Only children and imbeciles generalise…

  • sunil says:
    September 16th, 2008 5:22 pm

    to add… the picture above is of a t43… so when did you fix the keyboard, lenovo?

  • Zach says:
    September 16th, 2008 9:48 pm

    I have on my kitchen table right now a T400, and a W500. I was already reading this blog post a few days before I actually picked the machines up, so I was already expecting the worst in the back of my mind.

    Coming from someone who uses T61s on a regular basis, there is definitly a difference in the feel of the two keyboards. The feel isn’t “bad bad”, but the great feeling I usually get from typing on the T, R, or even Z series machines just isn’t there on the new ones. Trust me, I really wanted to not notice a difference. After all, I am a huge Lenovo fan, and part of me feels like I’m doing a disservice to Lenovo by openly criticizing their product, potentially driving away customers, but then again, I hate the Apple fanboys too. They can never admit when something apple does or designs just plain sucks, so I feel like I need to be the better person here and let Lenovo know that there *is* a difference in keyboard feel with the new design, and I would rather have the old one back.

    I’m not sure who produced the two keyboards in my W and T series, but the T400 feels quite a bit nicer than the W series’ one. Could the negative feel be amplified by different suppliers?

    Thanks for listening Lenovo.

  • Harpyeagle says:
    September 16th, 2008 10:40 pm

    hmmm….i wonder who “T400″ the user is….it is a waste of time if all of us go unheard…

  • Michael says:
    September 16th, 2008 11:20 pm

    Jketzetera:

    Hmmm, well, both keyboards use the same perforated metal plate. They are the same size too, so I’d imagine they’re interchangeable. If so, then they should also be swappable with T60/T61 keyboards, but that shouldn’t be necessary.

    Pictures here:

    http://forum.notebookreview.co.....p?t=296363

  • SteveJ says:
    September 17th, 2008 8:42 am

    Adding another “myth” to our collection here, the R500 this time.

    “…I was disappointed with the amount of flex present. Throughout the entire keyboard, there were differing levels of flex. On the left side, there was a minimal amount of flex that required one to press down with some force. On the right side, the flex was more pronounced…”

    “Keyboard flex is disappointing coming from a Thinkpad”

    http://forum.notebookreview.co.....p?t=298545

    ThinkPad keyboard legend officially busted!

  • Tim Supples says:
    September 17th, 2008 10:53 am

    Folks,
    I’ve had to remove a couple of comments that degenerated from unproductive discussion to outright ridiculousness. Please review The Rules if you’re unsure what types of comments are or are not allowed. Thanks, and keep the discussion going.

  • wjli2 says:
    September 17th, 2008 2:26 pm

    @sunil, if the Lenovo Thinkpad keyboards have a problem then lets just keep it to that, there is no point to bring ‘Made in China’ derogative into that. Only mindless people like to use these sorts of connatation.

  • vkyr says:
    September 18th, 2008 1:29 pm

    The quality of the keyboard, the keyboard keys/caps, the trackpoint and it’s buttons etc. was always one of the special outstanding design features of ThinkPads. It was for notebook users always much different and quite easily to recognize this special Thinkpad feeling in contrast to the keyboards from other notebook brands.

    As an analogy… it reminds me somehow to the former times quality and sound of car doors, like for example those from Mercedes Benz, which also always had that special different sound and feeling when closing the doors.

    It would sadden me much, if the era of legendary Thinkpad keyboards would not (for what economical production or other reasons ever) survive into actual and future Thinkpad notebooks.

    Keyboard quality is usually no plain luck of the draw, it’s a very important point for notebooks as an ergonomic interaction input device, in the same manner as having a good quality TFT panel as an visually output device (…we always only have just have one pair of hands and eyes, which can be hardly renewed).

    Thus personally I wouldn’t accept any compromises here and instead of saving some grams of weight, I prefer a slightly higher weight on a notebook in favor of a good first class keyboard (and TFT panel too).

    I wished nowadays Thinkpad notebook keyboards would still have the quality and feeling of the good old TP 600/700 models, whose keyboards have been of state-of-the-art quality and a pleasure to type on.

  • Nicolaus Hepler says:
    September 20th, 2008 2:27 am

    I too have to throw in my opinion regarding the keyboard quality. I recently purchased (and unfortunately, was forced to return due to the outrageous and confusing dead/stuck pixel policy. I had 2 bright pixels on my new T400 and they refused to replace the screen, so RMA. Very disappointing, especially given Dell’s 1 bright pixel policy on their Latitudes, anyways, I digress) a T400, and managed a system-to-system comparison between the T61, T400, and X300 in my local school’s tech center. The T61 and X300 had sturdy keyboards, no flex at all at any point of the keyboard, they felt securely mounted. The T400 did have a noticeable spring beneath it at some points, some regions of the right side, and a couple specific regions near the center of the keyboard as well. Whether the new backplate is to blame or not, I cannot tell, but it just isn’t as solid as it used to be in the T61, or as it is in the X300. Nevertheless, would have been a nice machine if it wasn’t for the display issues.

  • sunil says:
    September 20th, 2008 3:18 pm

    @wjli2, no racism intended, i’m just furious Lenovo messed with a combination that had absolutely nothing wrong with it for the sake of “thin&light” points… i really don’t want to shell out another like $120 to get the same experience as if i bought a t61 in the first place…

  • Klaus says:
    September 20th, 2008 7:47 pm

    Same for me here, it really bugs me that I have to already calculate the replacement keyboard price into the total price.

  • Nopad says:
    September 21st, 2008 12:54 am

    I had plans to buy the T400 but the inferior keyboard stopped me, wjli2 why don’t you let people express their opinions? are an employee of Lenovo?

  • wjli2 says:
    September 21st, 2008 2:19 am

    There is denial that the one size fits all keyboard for the new X, R, T, W are not performing equally well in all models concerned. While, the intention of Lenovo for this change has been good, in which lenovo is trying to increase heat removal efficiency and at the same time decrease the weight. Hopefully that we are going to see the the T6x series keyboard back in the future T, R, W series, so everyone can have their own piece of heaven.

  • wjli2 says:
    September 21st, 2008 2:20 am

    it should say there is ‘no’ denial at the start sorry for the typo.

  • erik says:
    September 21st, 2008 6:46 pm

    There is denial that the one size fits all keyboard for the new X, R, T, W are not performing equally well in all models concerned.

    wjli2 – since when does the X-series keyboard fit the T/R/W chassis?   both the X200 and X300 have completely different bolt patterns than the T, R, and W.   the X200 takes four screws, the X300 two screws, and the T, R, and W one screw.

    regardless, the “one keyboard fits all” concept has been done since the T4 and R5 series were introduced five years ago.

  • Colin says:
    September 21st, 2008 7:05 pm

    Played with a T400 in a store yesterday, I hope it was empty on the bottom because I saw quite a bit of flex when pressing down on the D and K keys. I’m a ThinkPad fan, but I have to say that my 5-year old Acer has less flex than that…

  • SteveJ says:
    September 22nd, 2008 8:36 am

    The problem with the “new” keyboard design (not really new, many notebooks have used flexible “cheese”-type keyboards) is that the stiffness is supposed to come from the chassis instead of the keyboard itself (stiffener aluminum back) as it used to be. And this is a poor engineering decision, at least in my opinion.

    A good design should be flexible enough so that small differences in manufacturing/assembly process don’t greatly affect the end result. The “new” design may work on paper but it falls short in reality since it relays on the assembly precision, which isn’t exactly a strong side of Lenovo at this point, especially since they discounted the T series from a premium line to a mass market product.

    What is sad here is that this blog seems to be more of marketing fluff than a place that people can complain and get their widespread issues addressed, which makes it pointless. We (the owners) wouldn’t be posting here if our keyboards still offered that so legendary “zero flex” experience, and why would we?

    David Hill virtually called us liars and lunatics who fabricate myths. Thank you!

  • R.A. says:
    September 22nd, 2008 6:13 pm

    Got the W500. Key stroke sound is quieter, tactile feedback is very good.
    Some flex exist under Q,W,A,S keys, but I don’t punch that hard.
    After one week, I am not sure if the T61 keyboard was better.

  • Khalifa says:
    September 23rd, 2008 2:26 pm

    Just realized that my T61 is the last Thinkpad ill ever buy end of an era indeed and all good things come to en end its sad but that’s life.

  • Fred says:
    September 23rd, 2008 7:07 pm

    So all those people reporting a flexy keyboard are what?

    a) imagining it.
    b) lying about it.
    c) don’t really understand what “flex” means.
    d) typing on laptops they think are ThinkPad’s but are not.
    e) just need to read your blog entry and the flex will magically disappear.

    The next time I fall down the stairs and break my arm, instead of going to the doctor, I’ll find some guru who will dispel my broken-arm-myth and I’ll feel just fine.

  • sunil says:
    September 24th, 2008 3:47 am

    @Fred that’s a pretty useless post right there. congratulations on wasting your own time posting it.

  • sunil says:
    September 24th, 2008 4:12 am

    i used to hold the thinkpad line in high regards, and i think that is partly due to the amount of criticism it received from more “stylish” laptop consumers who called thinkpads “ugly, boxy, bland, etc” now that the new t400 keyboards are built to a standard that is less robust than its t61 predecessor, i am forced to realize that lenovo’s keyboards have been a phenomena that have been taken for granted by the company… to the extent that lenovo feels they can compromise the feel of their infamous keyboards to produce a universial version which can be implemented in all of its laptop models… as a person who from 6 years old has always had a special place in my heart for thinkpads, i am sad to say i am giving up on lenovo this time. 120 dollafrs to replace a keyboard yourself is appalling and uncalled for. shame on you, lenovo—you’re making me buy an hp elitebook, you retards.

  • Petyo says:
    September 24th, 2008 4:32 am

    Tested or not, it does not feel the same :( . The keyboard flexes, especially on the left side. It also makes bad clickery sounds. My previous Thinkpad, z60m, had it better…

    I just spent ~1500E on this machine. Everything else I can live with (quite happy with the display). But the legendary keyboard is gone for me.

  • Klaus says:
    September 24th, 2008 7:39 am

    @ sunil: Why is Freds post useless? He’s just disappointed like all the others of us, and he also doesn’t like Lenovo’s strategy of telling us we’re wrong when we aren’t.

  • Zach says:
    September 24th, 2008 12:22 pm

    Mr. Hill, are you planning on a response to this at all? I really enjoy the idea of Lenovo Blogs, but think it would help lay to rest some of the uncertainty if you could give a status on what kind or resolution Lenovo may be looking at to address the shortcomings of the new keyboard. If you are unsure the status, I think the acknowledgment that Lenovo is hearing the customers would suffice for most of us in the mean time. I hope this will be worked through soon, and I wont have to wait for the T401.

  • Fred says:
    September 24th, 2008 2:11 pm

    Zach brings up a very good point that the folks at Lenovo seem to misunderstand about blogs – they’re meant to be an interactive medium. But then Design Matters is a blog only in name. This is a well-established corporate trend where companies strategically place “blogs” into the blogosphere, capitalizing on the popularity of the blogging phenomenon without really participating in it. This “blog” is simply another PR tool for Lenovo, which also serves the purpose letting irate customers blow off steam in the hopes of reducing support calls. But then I really enjoy wasting my own time (about 30 second) posting such musings.

  • HappyFirst says:
    September 25th, 2008 10:50 am

    Well, I just got my T500 and all I can say then is something went seriously wrong between testing and manufacturing. The left side of my keyboard flexes and makes an extra hollow like sound. This is the worst keyboard I’ve ever used on a laptop. It’s like the left side has no support. The right side is fine.

  • Khalifa says:
    September 26th, 2008 2:30 pm

    HappyFirst according to Lenovo you are just imagining it Myth Busted again!

  • Giacomo says:
    September 26th, 2008 4:28 pm

    The review has not been translated into English yet, but Notebookcheck has tested the ThinkPad W500 and also found that the keyboard has noticeable flex which, while not intolerable, is wholly atypical of ThinkPads and detracts from the quality of the flagship mobile workstation.

    In German: http://www.notebookcheck.com/T.....515.0.html

  • a says:
    September 26th, 2008 5:23 pm

    Just received a T400 here and tried pressing on the keyboard. There is a very noticeable and nasty flex, consistent with what I’ve read before. Hardly “myth busted”, guys. It’s still fine to type on but looks and feels cheap compared to the T61 keyboard.

  • Mikael says:
    September 27th, 2008 5:37 pm

    I received my T500 (to rplace T40) and after a full day of setting it up, here are my thoughts: It is a relief to say that the keyboard is still great, a pleasure to type with.

    I am able to find a flex on the upper right-hand keyboard area but only when pressing keys 2-4 times harder than normally. Pressing equally hard on keys on the T40 keyboard gives a flex too.

    The only engineering or quality issue that bothers me is the plastic flex on the lower right-hand frame where my wrist is resting while typing. The plastic makes a flexing “click-clack” noise during typing as if if would not be quite well in place. Also the panel lid does not close very firmly.

    Yes. I am still a loyal ThinkPad customer.

  • Khalifa says:
    September 28th, 2008 11:34 am

    A friend just got his T500 and went to Lenovo’s support and they replaced his keyboard with a T61 keyboard on warranty he told them either to replace the inferior Keyboard or take back the T500 and give him back his money.

  • Klaus says:
    September 28th, 2008 3:55 pm

    That’s very good news. Seems like they quietly understood after all.

  • Denisky says:
    September 29th, 2008 4:04 am

    I have noticed that the keyboards in IBM thinkpad is much better than the ones made by Lenovo. I don’t know why. Lenovo, are you trying to compete with those cheaply made brands? I mean, come on, Thinkpad is a high end product. People are expecting more from thinkpad than other brands. So, stop making thinkpad like a cheap laptop brand. Thank you.

  • Khalifa says:
    September 30th, 2008 12:20 pm

    Denisky

    Unlike Lenovo IBM really cared about quality.

  • Raptorhertz says:
    September 30th, 2008 3:02 pm

    Now this is scary!
    Any idea when the situation will improve for T500/W500.Atleast Lenovo should not be sitting quite on this issue, as it increase frustration among the coustmers.
    I think i have to postpone my purchase or i should look for M4400.

  • Klaus says:
    September 30th, 2008 4:50 pm

    Yeah I’m glad that I don’t need a new ThinkPad too badly, I still can wait some months, so I also hope that Lenovo gets back to the old keyboard (or at least improves the new technology, since the keyboards seems to be okay in the X200 and X300).

  • Raptorhertz says:
    October 1st, 2008 1:37 am

    @Klaus,
    I hope they(Lenovo)announce soon that keyboard mess has been resolved.Someome reading this…

  • MiDiMaN says:
    October 1st, 2008 5:02 pm

    I ordered a T400 yesterday from Lenovo, I just read all the comments above and fear of what I am going to get. I have both T41 and Dell 600m. The 600m is the flex king of all notebook keyboards!

    I called the sales support line (866)428-4465 and hoped to ask for a different keyboard to be inserted for my T400, the current part number for my T400 keyboard is 42X6355, I was hoping to get the 39T0958 or 42T3143. Guess what, the customer rep hung up on me right away as soon as I raised the question, what type of customer service is this!

    I am going to cancel my order immediately.

  • MiDiMaN says:
    October 1st, 2008 6:14 pm

    I just called the sales support line (866)428-4465 again and was able to reach the right person at sales support this time. I was told that they couldn’t exchange the keyboard part before shipping out to me first, but they will be able to do that after I receive my T400. They can ship the older keyboard part to me and I can just replace it myself. The sale rep is aware of the T400 keyboard issue and there have been people calling them for the same request.

    I found below information from various forums:

    Here are the part numbers for the three T60 keyboards:

    39T7118 – ALPS
    39T7178 – Chicony
    39T0958 – NMB

    And the same for the T61:

    42T3209 – ALPS
    42T3273 – Chicony
    42T3143 – NMB

    Seems like NMB is the best choice for quality.

    I read somewhere where some people do get their T400s but don’t notice the flex problem, perhaps it is different keyboard in production batch? I am going to find out later this month when I receive my T400. My ship date is 10/14/2008.

    http://forum.notebookreview.co.....p?t=297767

    http://forum.notebookreview.co.....p?t=302432

  • abalastow compendium says:
    October 1st, 2008 10:05 pm

    Where is the Lenovo response?

    You must be aware of the 137 commments you have!

  • Khalifa says:
    October 3rd, 2008 12:55 am

    Today I am getting a mixture of feelings excited & depressed, depressed because for a decade I’ve been a loyal ThinkPad customer but not anymore! And excited because I just got my new Dell Latitude E6400 and I love it! I needed durable 14.1 laptop with a DisplayPort + solid keyboard and dell delivered anyhow since I’m no more a Lenovo customer I just want to say good bye and RIP IBM ThinkPad Lenovo killed you.

  • Denisky says:
    October 3rd, 2008 1:54 am

    @Khalifa,

    I agree with your statement. I want to say good bye to Thinkpad too. It is sad story that there was a good and high quality laptop made by IBM, but it died once IBM sold its laptop division to other company.

    So what I can say: _RIP ThinkPad (1992-2005)_

  • Snife says:
    October 3rd, 2008 7:04 am

    Denisky and Khalifa – your uninformed opinion couldn’t be more wrong and its really not helpful for ThinkPad fans who want the ThinkPad tradition to carry on. The last true IBM ThinkPad was the ThinkPad T4* which, while a nice system, had more failures than any ThinkPad I can remember. Any problems that arise now cannot be blamed on it being Lenovo instead of IBM, The T60 and X300 were all Lenovo and are great systems, any problems like this keyboard thing are just misguided engineering efforts which IBM had in the past too.

    I just seen a new T400 which had a new backing plate on the keyboard (but different to T60) and was more rigid so maybe something has been done behind the scenes to improve this but I need more time to investigate this change.

  • Khalifa says:
    October 4th, 2008 1:48 am

    Snife English is not my language but ill try my best, I don’t think you understood a word I said! it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that problems and serious issues don’t just go away when you ignore them if I remember correctly ThinkPad X61 Tablet customers complaining about the screen bezel opening up and cracking and Lenovo informed everyone through their blog that the problem is being addressed however in the inferior keyboard case and after many complaints and bad reviews Lenovo replied officially and said that its only a Myth! Snife if you don’t understand what that means then you have a big problem! anyhow ill explain it for you it means they think the keyboarded is acceptable to them and they have no intention of changing it and that we loyal ThinkPad customers will accept the inferior Keyboard as we accepted the cheap plastics and the removal of titanium & magnesium before well I will not accept that! I have no problem paying $3.000 + for a ThinkPad however when I pay such an amount I shouldn’t get cheap plastics and inferior keyboards! Lenovo not commenting on customer complains in this blog means that Lenovo is sacrificing quality in favor of affordability, ThinkPad’s in general and especially T series are being stripped out of their quality slowly! I never abused a notebook in my life like I abused my T42 however I’m welling to bet that if we stop someone from the street and ask him which laptop is older my totally abused T42 or my 1 year old T61 which I’m using now he will say the T61 so don’t tell me that Lenovo ThinkPad’s have better quality than IBM ThinkPad’s you can fool your self but you can’t fool others! we had around 120 Lenovo ThinkPad T60’s and most of them had BSOD and dead pixels and they were the worst ThinkPad’s we ever used and I don’t remember ever having a single incident with IBM ThinkPad’s that’s why we chose IBM ThinkPad’s from the start from other brands! Now Lenovo isn’t offering what differentiated IBM ThinkPad’s from other brands anymore.

  • Duxov says:
    October 4th, 2008 2:08 pm

    The thing is absolutely clear. They say “This test yielded an average temporary deformation…” Well the problem is in the word “average”! It means in the middle there is maybe even less flex, but on the sides there is more… Chinese loosers…

    The Dell E6400 is definitely my next notebook…

  • Snife says:
    October 4th, 2008 4:55 pm

    Khalifa – By all means highlight your problems but I just have a problem with the whole RIP ThinkPad or Lenovo destroyed ThinkPads because its just not true and I dont think its helpful, I speak as someone who was made redundant by Lenovo and I really do not like them as a company but I still believe there is something special about a ThinkPad and that doesn’t change because of a one time issue with a keyboard or a bezel.

    Having been an employee, I know the failure rates of T4* and T6* ThinkPads, and I can assure you that T4* was higher (mainly due to solder cracking due to system flex which the rollcage prevents on T6*).

    Obviously there are individual cases which do not reflect the statistics (and there were BSOD issues on T6* relating to memory hardware and wireless driver software which Lenovo have documented) but i’ve not seen many dead pixels on ThinkPads (and i’ve seen a lot). I’m willing to concede that current ThinkPads will not age as well cosmetically but this is due to the strength being on the inside rather than the outside and i’d trade some cracked plastic over solder crack on the boards or cracked LCD panels any day (current ThinkPads contain way more magnesium alloy that previous ones btw).

    If you have a problem with the keyboard or another issue then make it known and you may help to get it resolved or improved on future systems but saying RIP ThinkPads is only likely to help the demise of the best notebooks on the market. For what its worth, the more I used the T400 systems the more I noticed the keyboard flex but if i’m realistic its no worse than the flex from other manufacturers and as I mentioned, the keyboard on a new model I just seen had a new stronger backing plate so maybe something has been done but just not documented.

  • manos protonotarios says:
    October 6th, 2008 11:02 am

    well, i cannot understand what is the meaning of improving a keyboard which is considered perfect and all thinkpad users (not only them) love. Even if some technical details may be improved this could perfectly result to the destruction of the perfect feel of the keyboard. The feel of the keyboard is a very difficult thing to describe with quantities someone can measure. You begin from the feel and then you end to the reasons it is perfect and not vice versa. (for example maybe too much stiffness is a drawback). I am a relatively new user of Z61m and i love the feel from the first moment i typed. If it is to be improved it must be revolutionary and without any doubts from anyone. if there are objections and as in this case so many, something must be wrong. The test with a machine is not the objective truth in such a matter which is objective from the human subjective point of view.

  • Mikael says:
    October 6th, 2008 6:35 pm

    Reading the above comments sounds like hysteria. I am typing with the T500 keyboard and its just perfect – feels crisp and firm as can be. I was worried, but not anymore.

  • Klaus says:
    October 7th, 2008 8:17 am

    @ Mikael, how long do you have your T500? If it’s brandnew, maybe Lenovo already addressed this issue (like some here suggested)

  • David Hill says:
    October 8th, 2008 10:47 am

    I wanted to thank everyone who took the time to share their thoughts and personal experiences here. While I believe the data from our internal force testing is accurate, it is also apparant that invidual experiences are mixed and may differ from what our internal findings would suggest.

    As a result, we would like to understand our customer experience in more detail and will look into these concerns further. I would invite those who are experiencing keyboard flex in their new ThinkPads to join this discussion in the Lenovo forums and provide some additional information to aid our understanding.

  • Tommy says:
    October 9th, 2008 2:59 pm

    Mr.David Hill,

    Just bring back the original keyboard and everything should fine I’m not gonna pay money on an expensive notebook then pay again to replace the inferior keyboard!

  • Tommy says:
    October 11th, 2008 6:08 am

    Lenovo fix this now! and till us when you do so!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6IzwiEsFKA

    Its not a Myth!

  • ac says:
    October 12th, 2008 2:06 pm

    Both the newer T400 and T500 models have noticeable flex when comparing to the T61. The keyboard seems specifically vulnerable at certain points, whereas the T61 is consistently solid throughout. I’d like to know how those 18 apparent unique test points were taken…

    Overall, the keyboard simply put is not up to par, and its a real disapointment. The overall build of the newer editions do not seem as solid as well. I can see why some loyal thinkpad lovers are considering the switch to other brands.

  • Suyash says:
    October 17th, 2008 1:01 am

    Today, I can see two new ThinkPad configurations have been added to the T400 lineup. Are those supposed to have this kbd flex issue fixed? Could any knowledgeable person throw some light on that?

  • Moo Kahn says:
    October 29th, 2008 1:14 am

    Ladies and Gents – I just wanted to add my .02. I’ve, and every company I’ve been involved with since 1995 have been LOYAL ThinkPad fleet purchases/users, and I have personally had hundreds of units apart on my bench. My experience with IBM and then Lenovo has been a mixed bag. From ‘95-2000 or so, we could literally send a box of loose parts off to EZ-Serv and get back a working reconditioned machine. Then, someone decided they needed to make money on the laptop division, and everything changed. Starting with the T20, IBM, and later Lenovo started a conscious campaign of CYA (Cover Your A$$)with machine issues that were CLEARLY design flaws and/or cost-cutting attempts. Overheating, cracking cases, cracking LCDs, disconnecting screen cables, crappy keyboards, on and on. The first bunch of T20s we purchsed ran so hot the UNDERSIDE of a formica tabletop would be too hot to touch. Of course, we were the only buyers on the planet who noticed this issue. Ditto for disintegrating plastics, and every other problem we’ve had. I had several X20 and X40 series machines with failed solder joints on the AC jack…. IBM/Lenovo claimed they had “spills” and refused to replace the motherboards, although we had physical evidence of cold solder joints. In one case they conveniently “lost” the machine in question so we couldn’t evidence it in court.

    Now don’t get me wrong – I’ve also managed fleet repairs on Dells, HP/Compaq, and Toshiba laptops, and all had the same issues and BS surrounding their service. But the difference is you pay a 20-30% PREMIUM for a ThinkPad -you expect the best product AND a no-hassle service policy. That’s how it used to be, and we had paid the premium gladly.

    But when I read comments like (paraphrasing) “we would NEVER compromise our keyboard feel to save money” BALONEY. You engineers who post that probably believe it – and we all want to believe it – but I’ve learned the hard way that corporations have ONE over-riding responsibility… to protect their shareholders. Don’t kid yourself, if Lenovo can save $.15 on a keyboard, they will absolutely do it and then spin the results to support their case to their resellers, engineers, and end-users.

    Users – you’ve gotta keep the pressure on or Lenovo will do what all corporations do. It’s the way of the world – even “Ben and Jerry’s” would do the same thing. If you know these keyboards aren’t up to snuff – and you DO because you’re USING them 12 hrs/day (execs in China probably are NOT)…. don’t buy the corporate spin – keep making noise. Make enough and you’ll get a decent keyboard out of the deal. Say nothing and the quality will slip a little bit more.

    Vote with your dollars. We came very close to ditching ThinkPads after the T20 debacle, but we finally got so someone in White Plains who would listen and who took our position up the ladder. It took over a year, but lo and behold… by the time the T23 came out, no more heat problems and no more cracking plastics or gray-spotting LCDs, etc. YOUR VOICE DOES COUNT. Lenovo IS responsive, but you’ve gotta use more cowbell.

  • Yann says:
    November 7th, 2008 1:52 pm

    Well, I jumped the gun and purchased a W500 from Lenovo. Just received my notice of shipment today. After reading this thread I’m concerned but staying optimistic.

    New ThinkPad user here. I really hope my first ThinkPad doesn’t turn out to be a lemon.

    Will report back with my findings!

  • kudlatygosc says:
    November 18th, 2008 3:32 pm

    Is there anyone who had chance to try new T400/T500 keyboards before and after the opinion of bend spread around?

    Really, I would be very interested to hear opinion what was the feels like in such case.

  • Chip says:
    November 24th, 2008 5:06 pm

    I’m not getting an X400/X500. I’ve seen the youtube and read the reviews and they’re just not real Thinkpads any more. I am so disappointed, but I’m not going to lie to myself about this.

  • Chip says:
    November 24th, 2008 5:08 pm

    Correcting previous post: I meant T400/T500.

  • jamesU says:
    November 26th, 2008 10:16 am

    I thought this must be really an issue of great importance, that’s why i went to a Lenovo store today to form my own opinion about it.
    I used a Thinkpad R40 for more than 4 years and was really satisfied with it in every aspect. Now is the time for me to buy a new machine and i am really looking forward to buy the R400.
    In that store i have tested a R61i, a T400 and a R500.
    At first i tested the flex issue of all the keyboards. For me, i couldn’t really make a difference between the models.
    The only thing that was different from the T400/R500 and the R61i was the typing effort: you had to press slightly harder with the new models than with the R61i. I don’t know about you guys, but i wouldn’t have noticed the difference about it if i had no reference model standing right beside me.

    After all, IMHO the keyboard of the older models is better, but not by far as some of you are claiming.

  • 1visitor says:
    November 30th, 2008 1:24 pm

    Just a reminder: it happened before, even in the IBM days. When I bought my first Thinkpad, it was greatly due to the keyboard reputation of the 600x model. Unfortunately that model wasn’t an option so I got the newer one, a “T” model, more exactly a T23. Let me tell you, at those days my T23 did amazingly well as a system, met my needs and inspired me towards new directions. But: the T23’s keyboard was nothing I hoped for, it flexed, felt mushy, I felt ripped off by trusting that an IBM’s keyboard would make a differente, it certainly did not and I could guess I would find better keyboards among competitors. Years later I got another T, this time a T42. What a difference, no flex at all, just solid feel. Now a second “but”: in he meantime I had gotten also an X31, with keys slightly smaller and a few flex spots (circa Tab, Caps Lock region). I wonder how the form-factor has influenced me, but let me tell you, I felt much better typing on the X31. I wonder how the keyboards in the Lenovo X series compare to my beloved X31’s (MOBO died, of symtoms experimented by other X31 users, either cold soldering or else).
    Until I regain confidence in spending again for a keyboard that I enjoy, I’m standing-by on the Apple side of the fence. The MacBooks have a solid keyboard, just not the same travel and tactile response I found in good IBM keyboards. And of course it’s apple, against oranges: has very nice things, while lacking some nice things I had with my x31. Now, I wonder how that tiny Lenovo S10 netbook’s keyboard feel …

  • Kevin Ness says:
    December 4th, 2008 2:23 pm

    I do not agree at all!!! The keyboard is different. The keyboard is worse. I have three machines in front of me (T42p, T43, and T500). There is a LARGE difference. The T500 is worse and will be my last IBM/Lenovo purchase. Really unfortunate Lenovo did this…

  • Tim Supples says:
    December 5th, 2008 6:00 pm

    Hi folks,
    We have completed our investigation of the keyboards referenced in this discussion and have a solution to offer our customers. For more information please read and post in the discussion thread on Lenovo Forums. Click here to go to the thread.
    Thank you for your patience and understanding.

  • Bill says:
    December 21st, 2008 6:42 pm

    Tim – the link leads nowhere.

  • Tim Supples says:
    December 21st, 2008 10:34 pm

    Bill – thanks for the heads up. I have fixed the link.

  • Jeffrey says:
    April 2nd, 2009 2:11 pm

    Well, in case anyone is wondering if Lenovo got around to fixing the T400 keyboard problem yet:

    I just received a T400 and immediately noticed that the keyboard was subpar compared to my T61. The whole left side of the keyboard made a clacking sound whenever I pressed on any key left of the F R or V keys. I thought this was a manufacturing defect and called Lenovo. They sent the computer to their repair depot and it arrived back in exactly the same condition. I was pretty upset and Lenovo offered to take it back and give me a refund. I initially considered exchanging this for another T400, but the guy I spoke with at Lenovo Sales said that word of mouth is that a lot of people have been complaining about this problem and he couldn’t ensure that my next T400 wouldn’t have this problem. Hence, I opted for a refund and am waiting for a fix to this problem before I place my order.

  • Luke says:
    April 22nd, 2009 3:48 am

    I will not purchase a Lenovo T500 as my first laptop
    Thank God I found out about this quality nightmare in time

  • Not thrilled says:
    May 8th, 2009 3:33 pm

    I have a t40, the keyboard is spectacular. Just bought an x200, the keyboard is OK but not great like the t40, screen was too small so replaced it with a t500. The keyboard sucks. It’s like a dell. Big disappointment. Other build quality and tolerances are not what they are on the t40 or even the x200 (which also is not as good as the t40). The x200 and t500 were inexpensive so you get what you pay. Wish there was a high-quality more expensive thinkpad option.

  • longlook says:
    May 27th, 2009 11:10 pm

    Almost order T400. I use a T61 and cannot compromise on keyboard quality. So this problem is not resolved?

  • newTPguy says:
    June 3rd, 2009 10:16 am

    Keyboard ‘issue’ is not resolved. Original T400s now come shipped with the swiss-cheese keyboard and the extra backing introduced in the chassis is not doing its job. Official Lenovo position appears to be to bury their head in sand i.e., “there is no problem”. Customer service response for a replacement (i.e., get an ‘old’ T61 keyboard instead) is patchy…depends on who you talk to and your appetite for causing trouble/irritation to them.

    Re not_thrilled’s comment: there should not be a need for a ‘more expensive’ better option. This option should be as good. I don’t think Lenovo should be rewarded for slipping up on build quality – esp. the keyboard. It’s a $30 part that is causing enormous grief to a lot of customers and scaring away new ones. And Lenovo refuses to change its ways…dunno who’s ego is getting in the way.

  • Inst says:
    June 8th, 2009 6:24 pm

    Regarding the keyboard, probably the issue is that end-users are reseting their hands on the keyboard, as opposed to simply impacting it with their fingers. The additional weight is causing flex you’re not detecting with your mechanical system.

  • Tony says:
    June 23rd, 2009 1:38 pm

    Read most of the comments and noticed other reviews for T400. Being an extensive user of T60/61 user for years I am really worried on upgrading to T400. Is the keyboard flex issue is solved?

  • gar says:
    June 23rd, 2009 3:58 pm

    Tony, it is solved on the new t400 and there was indeed an issue with them.

  • Vivek says:
    July 4th, 2009 1:59 pm

    This whole FLEX issue in the new T400 and T500 machines has made me to rethink my decision to go for Thinkpad. My second choice is Dell Latitude.

    Thinkpads have always been expensive though great notebooks but reading a lot of bad reviews especially regarding the keyboard has scared me a lot.

    I do not want to end up being in the list of customers facing this FLEX issue and I am now thinking Dell again. I mean if the primary input device is not satisfactory then there is no point spending lot of money a notebook.

    Guys could you please confirm that this issue has been resolved or Lenovo is doing something in this regard?

    Many thanks.

  • Stormfyre says:
    July 6th, 2009 7:14 pm

    Just received my T500. Haven’t turned it on yet, but the first thing I did was to check for flex. Besides some minor flex (not on the keyboard) on the sides, and some flex if I press HARD on the escape key, there is no longer any flex whatsoever. Now, I ordered in late June so I’m assuming this is not one with the T61 keyboard and is the one with the improved chasis. I had felt a T400 before I ordered and the keyboard had significant indentation/flex problems. There are none on my T500. Whatever they did, it worked. Nice going, guys.

  • Stormfyre says:
    July 7th, 2009 2:38 am

    On further inspection:

    Flex around the QWERTY area. Isn’t as bad as the videos show, or as bad as that T400 I felt, but still flexes abit. Flex around the Enter and Backspace keys happens, but is less pronounced than the QWERTY area. Fortunately, I can feel a support under the flex (in other words, I can press down hard enough, and feel something solid under the keyboard preventing me from pushing down moare). Funnily enough, the page up key, which I thought would flex the most, is rock solid.

  • Absolute Titanium Design Company says:
    July 8th, 2009 10:33 pm

    The reviewer from notebookreview.com at least WROTE as if he first discovered flex, and after that removed the keyboard to see the different. It didn’t sound like he first disassembled the ThinkPad and THEN thought “aha, now it must be very flexy”.

  • Stormfyre says:
    July 22nd, 2009 2:24 am

    Ok, so I acquired a T61 NMB keyboard and slipped it in as a replacement.

    It does flex indeed less. HOWEVER, the accounts of flexing are being slightly exaggerated.

    It actually depends on the speed at which you type. Steady applied pressure yields about the same amount of flex on either keyboard, with a little bit less on the T61, probably due to thicker back plating and earlier meeting with the chasis.

    HOWEVER: If you type (aka, push down powerfully on one key rapidly), the difference can be seen. The T61 keyboard stands up well to hard, but rapid, typing. The T500 default keyboard, however, will bounce, slightly. Just a warning to all. Exaggerated, but feelable if you are a heavy typer.

  • Stormfyre says:
    July 31st, 2009 2:19 pm

    Upon further inspection with the old keyboard, I have concluded that it’s not the way the keyboard is constructed, but the thickness of the backplating.

    I think the new keyboard has a thinner backplating, and that isn’t sitting so well on the chasis and thus the space created allows pressing down/flex. The old T61 keyboard with the thicker backplating sits better/snugger on the chasis, and thus does not flex as much. Perhaps consider this when you build the next T series? Keep the perforation, thicken the backplate?

  • lenovo_why? says:
    August 3rd, 2009 2:27 pm

    Spent several months weighing up comments here, and elsewhere. Very few places in the UK to get to see Thinkpads in stores – nearly all business or consumer on-line. Anyway T500 replacement for my R51 came last week. BIG disappointment. Keyboard flexes significantly, slopes doown to the left, sounds hollow and rattles slighly. Just feels not nice to the touch. Tried to get a T61 replacement through sales and support. Exchanges were polite, but the answer was a firm no, with the offer for me to return the product for a full refund – which is all I have the right to ask for (so no complaints here). BUT, articles like the above – and claims I’ve seen by Lenovo representatives elsewhere – make me really pissed. Just be honest Lenovo – you’ve radically changed the design, and a good number of your existing customers hate it to the point of deserting you.

  • lenovo_why? says:
    August 3rd, 2009 2:30 pm

    For the record, I ordered mine on 27/07. I can’t square up the expereinces of some people here that the issue has been largely fixed.

  • Steve says:
    August 13th, 2009 12:05 am

    Just replaced my Dell with a T400 I ordered off Lenovo’s site. I couldn’t figure out why the keyboard felt so funny and the trackpad buttons were so loud. Then I looked down at the thing while I was using it… looks like a waterbed, so I started searching the web and found this site. Did I just make a terrible business decision ordering these?
    Steve

  • cstewart says:
    August 14th, 2009 11:59 am

    I currently own an Apple Macbook Pro, and I hate the keyboard. The Apple has zero flex, the keyboard just isn’t very “clicky”. I thought “thinkpad” because they are known for having good keyboards.

    I just got my Lenovo Thinkpad T400 on August 10, 2009. The keyboard is very good, but it does flex MUCH MORE than the Apple. I’d never heard of the keyboard flex issue, before I got my laptop. My research into this issue is completely based on the fact that my T400 keyboard flex is very noticeable.

    After reading about the T400 improvements (under-keyboard supports), I removed my keyboard to see if I had the “fixed” version. My T400 does indeed have the under-keyboard supports, yet the keyboard flex is still there. I believe this issue is due to the keyboard not resting flush against the under-keyboard supports. On my T400 the flimsy keyboard “bows” upward, away from the chassis. So, there is a gap between the bottom of the keyboard and chassis, hence the flex. This is CLEARLY a design problem. I’m not comparing this keyboard to an older Thinkpad, as others have, I’m comparing it to other laptops in general. I have a Dell and Apple laptop that don’t exhibit this problem.

    Again, the under-keyboard supports are FINE, the problem is that the keyboards don’t fit against the chassis snugly (quality control problem?). Combine that with a flimsy keyboard, and you have the “flexy” feel that users complain about. On my machine, the display ribbon cable also causes the keyboard to bulge upward near the power button. This is just SHODDY DESIGN.

    Mr. Hill, I’d love to hear more from you on this issue. Your customers are trying to tell you something! Please, investigate my points, and you’ll see that I’m telling the truth! I have ordered a T61 keyboard (with the metal backplate, IBM part no. 42T3143), and I’m going to do my own Mythbusting. It will be posted here in a few weeks: http://leaflock.net/

    -chris

  • Satish Nookala says:
    August 16th, 2009 3:19 pm

    Dear David,

    T400 is the worst Thinkpad I have ever seen. I have worked from last 4 years on T40, T42, and T43. As a Java programmer, I hammer my Thinkpad for 10-12 hours a day on my favorite Editplus editor. Never a feeling of fatigue.

    But I recently got my new T400 and alas, I am very unhappy. I worked on it for 1 hr and was forced to leave it on the desk. The keyboard is “not” the same as one used to be on T42 or T43. The screen is so much off-centered, that I can’t concentrate on my “coding”. I am “left-hander” and I feel the designers of this laptop did not consider the left-handed guys. As a programmer I tend to look more towards the “left-side” of the laptop. And with the new T400, everytime I start to type one line of code, it annoys me.

    The palm rest is such an annoying thing. Especially to the right side. When I move my hand towards the PgUp / PgDn, it makes noise due to the rubbing of palm. This is all because of the cheap plastic, and the matted finish. Also since there is no good depth for the chasis, I can really rest my palms on the palm rest. See the Dell D620 etc. Even though these also are wide screen models, the palm rest is real good with lot of resting space. And now comes the “Esc” key. Why did you “decrease” the distance between screen and the “Esc” key? Once today, I hit the screen when I really wanted to press the Esc key.

    I don’t use Wireless much. I hook up my Ethernet wire. Now here comes one more annoying thing. Whenever I type Ctrl+Tab, or Alt+Tab, my little finger and ring finger are over the network wire. Why did Lenovo shuffle the fan and these ports?

    Why did you make the Windows key so small, and the context menu bigger? Instead of that you could have kept the bigger size for the right Ctrl button. Whenever I type Ctrl+Backspace (again I am programmer and I use this combination very much), I tend to press the ContextButton+Backspace. Such a bad design. Look at Dell, they have not put the context button at all.

    I tried to use my new T400 couple of times, thinking I will change my mind someday and start liking it. But no way. I am returning it. I can bear the 15% restocking fee, instead of bearing this horrible laptop.

    Thinkpad users are a cult. They take the same pride in these machines, as motorists take pride in Harley Davidson motorcycles. (Hopefully Harley Davidson does not sell its company to China :-) )

    Please do not tarnish the image of Thinkpad just to make money. Please go and do some other business.

    Regards,
    Satish.

  • Satish Nookala says:
    August 16th, 2009 3:21 pm

    A small typo in my previous comment. I meant:

    I “can’t” really rest my palms on the palm rest.

  • suguru says:
    August 16th, 2009 6:20 pm

    I can say I saw the same flex issue with my T400 (my employer got for me, built in May 2009) – not bad enough to make me hate it and try to track down one without the cutouts but a little annoying. Well, the space bar on the keyboard started getting sticky and Lenovo sent me a new one – and although I hadn’t specifically requested one, I got one with the solid metal back! I don’t know how you tested it, but if you just hold one and gently try to flex it in your hands, there’s a big difference between the solid backplate model and the new swiss-cheese one – I do notice a difference in regular use too now that I have a solid backplate. Anyway, ThinkPads are nice but not worth the extra money IMHO…things like this are driving me to just get a Dell next time I’m in the market for a laptop.

  • Satish Nookala says:
    August 19th, 2009 11:45 am

    Update from my side. I just returned my T400 with 15% restocking fee. I just don’t feel like using it. I tried to use it for a week, but could not love it. So instead of keeping something which I can’t love, I returned it. I will now be moving to Dell E6400 or maybe a refurbished T42/T43.

    Regards,
    Satish.

  • wyson says:
    August 23rd, 2009 3:41 am

    This article / post is in such bad taste. It’s like going to a restaurant, complaining that the food is cold, only for the waiter to produce a thermometer, stick it in the dish, and exclaim, “look, its 43 degrees C, you don’t know what you are talking about.”

    Oh dear.

  • Krayzie says:
    September 6th, 2009 7:20 pm

    I have also tried a few T400 Thinkpads that are being currently deployed here at Big Blue, and I thought the T61 was bad enough, boy was I wrong. The keyboard flex on the T400 can both be readily seen and felt, especially at the upper left side. Another design flaw is the UltraNav touchpad where it is not recessed as deep as previous models, so when you are using the trackpoint, the lower portion of your thumb will easily get in touch with the touchpad, which messes with your mouse cursor. Personally I agree with most people here that the Thinkpad design truly peaked with the Rome T4x series. The credit crunch / lean models starting with the Lenovo T6x series using more cheap plastics, off centered grainy LCD widescreens, and rolls of Scotch tape holding down various after thought parts inside the machine will tarnish the brand for good. Lenovo can try to sell me a new Thinkpad at 1/3 the previous price but I will always pickup an old IBM Thinkpad instead just to enjoy the quality build and design.

    Yours truly,

    Krayzie – Enjoying the IBM Thinkpad T43 2668-CTO

  • Satish Nookala says:
    September 17th, 2009 12:27 pm

    Truly said Krayzie… I just got a refurbished T42 after returning the T400 and it’s pretty good to use.

  • laszlo says:
    September 28th, 2009 10:07 am

    I had an R51 Centrino for 5 yrs. Its still 100% operational, but I wanted to move to the next level with the T500. From typing perspective I think its not even half as good as a low budget R51.
    Otherwise the laptop is cool. Next time Lenovo please listen to your customers not your engineers :)

  • Paul says:
    November 13th, 2009 11:44 am

    I just received my new W500 (same chassis as a T500) and the keyboard (left side) does indeed have a lot of flex in it. I called Lenovo and they shipped a replacement keyboard; however, it was shipped bent, so they’ve sent me another. We’ll see how this all ends up. I can assure that the above article is incorrect, there is flex in the new keyboards.

  • Mike says:
    November 26th, 2009 11:28 pm

    Tried out a brand new T400 keyboard today. I can’t understand how this keyboard is defended as being stiffer, it most certainly isn’t. It bows under even slight pressure at the center, something that never happened with my old T41 (which I put next to the T400 for comparison) or my new MacBook Pro. The keyboard should not move perceptibly, that’s how Thinkpad keyboards always were, at least my T41 and before that a 600E.

    In recent years Lenovo laptops have become a great value as prices have dropped significantly, but quality has undeniably been sacrificed in some places, either in design or manufacturing.

  • Saravana says:
    December 8th, 2009 10:14 pm

    Ordered a brand new T500 this Thanksgiving. I got it yesterday and had to send it back today because of Keyboard Flex and over heating. The left side of the keyboard was particularly bad. The machine was also over heating and very uncomfortable to use.

    I am upgrading from my old T41 which was rock solid all these years. The latest lenovo’s T500 does not seem to be as rugged and of good quality than the old IBM T41’s were.

    After seeing the T500, I am beginning to like my old T41 even more.

  • Puppy says:
    December 10th, 2009 6:27 am

    It is not myth, it is reality. Yesterday I went to local Lenovo showroom where I compared X200s, X301, R400, T400 and T500 keyboards. Except the X200s which is rock solid, other’s models keyboards noticeably flexes, especially in Q-W-E keys area ! X301 one was slighly better but still more than I’d consider acceptable. None of my old IBM ThinkPads exhibits such problem. I’d like to buy new but “good old” ThinkPad, please …

  • Brian says:
    December 16th, 2009 11:05 am

    Myth? Perhaps a better word would be ‘Denial’ as something got lost in the translation from design into manufacture and there is noticeable floppiness on a Northern California consumer’s brand new W500 recently delivered to his door (Dec 2009). The common sense sensitivity of the human hand and a very experienced middle age mind which had been humping computers for too many years trumps some big metal device even if it has pneumatic tubes and wires attached.

  • [New Products] Lenovo ThinkPad X100e: cheapest, smallest ThinkPad yet | Thinkpads.com – News, Reviews, Coupons, Deals on ThinkPad & IdeaPad Laptop computers says:
    January 4th, 2010 9:08 am

    [...] that they wouldn’t change it for the worse. I mean, it’s not like they’ve ever messed with the keyboard before and had to fix it, [...]

  • Greg Courville says:
    January 8th, 2010 9:52 pm

    I recently tossed out the original (42T3970) keyboard on my brand-new T400 in favor of a well-worn T61 pull. The stock keyboard had a slight warp that caused the left-hand side to “float” some fraction of a millimeter off the supports, and combined with the flimsy perforated backplate this created a really objectionable “hollow” feel under normal typing. With the solid-backed keyboard, there remains a somewhat disconcerting mushiness in the upper-left region, but typing is a great deal more bearable…

  • d says:
    March 15th, 2010 6:42 pm

    The unfortunate truth is that Lenovo is a business, not a research institute.If consumers like the old boards better, your rigorous testing is useless. I myself own several older and newer IBM/Lenovo laptops and still prefer the quality of the IBM’s. My W700 is of especially poor construction. I actually took it apart and placed padding beneath the keyboard myself to help make up for the reduction in quality. Lenovo just needs to have a purist line which keeps the same physical system as closely as possible but updates the hardware. The chassis construction techniques were perfect when IBM created it. Put the cost cutting junk in these new Lenovo “non thinkpad” laptops you’re trying to marked at competitive/cheap prices.

  • lead_org says:
    March 16th, 2010 2:29 am

    @D, if the chassis construction techniques of the IBM thinkpads were all perfect, then there wouldn’t be the problem of the T4x ATI GPU detaching from the planar boards.

    Laptop is a commodity, so if you raise your price too much in order to please the die hard purists, then you would drive away the rest of the customers.

    Unfortunately, right now Lenovo can’t live off the purists, since there is just not enough of them.

    Market reality.

  • d says:
    March 17th, 2010 6:29 pm

    That’s why I said have A (i.e. single) purist/legacy line with the traditional construction. Or just make legacy grade construction materials an option. Obviously this would require some planning on Lenovo’s part-they couldn’t just roll it out tomorrow, but it would be a good think to consider when designing the next thinkpads.
    Try all the fancy “weight saving” cheapening “advancements” on the new lines like the x100e or SL’s or ThinkEdges.

  • Martin says:
    June 14th, 2010 7:06 am

    Having worked on Thinkpad for over 10 years, the T500 and T400 keyboars ARE flexing, which was my main reason for checking other brands. SONY, HP and DELL all have stiff keyboards with today’s high-end laptops, so why the Thinkpad is going back to “retro” style with that flexing keyboard that feels so cheap?

  • Dave says:
    July 15th, 2010 10:13 am

    Ugh. As one of the afflicted, this “Myth Busted” offends me. It seems to say “we designed it good, so our customers over there in reality clearly don’t know what they’re talking about”.

    As a diehard ThinkPad T-series user of the ThinkPad, having had a T22, T41p, T42, T60p, and finally a T61. I actually took a 3month hiatus and tried a MacBook Pro. I missed the ThinkPad keyboard layout until I traded in the MBP for a T400. Whoops.

    It’s been two days now. Day 1 it was clear something wasn’t right with this ThinkPad. Grabbed a screwdriver and tightened down all the keyboard screws. It really felt like it was loose, like missing screws under the W and P keys. I was surprised the tightening had little effect on the problem. Day 2 had me Googling “T400 squishy keyboard” and “T400 keyboard problem”.

    Even my Acer Aspire 1810TZ has a better keyboard than this T400, and that’s just wrong in every possible way. But perhaps not as wrong as this kind of response to customers.

    I’ll miss the solid construction of the MacBook Pro 13″. That keyboard was rock solid btw. More than anything though, I’ll miss the old ThinkPad quality. I dug out my T42 just to make sure my sanity was intact, and it truly shames this T400.

    Day 2 ends with me ordering a T61 keyboard off eBay for this T400. It seems clear that a stiffer keyboard on the stiffer chassis is a better design than both the stiffer keyboard on the looser chassis and the looser keyboard on the stiffer chassis. So whatever.

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