The Keyboard You Helped Design
Back in December of last year I posted a blog and related survey on Design Matters concerning our in market external ThinkPad keyboard. I’ve used one for years on my desk. The blog was very popular generating over 100 comments. The related survey probed on things like touchpad vs. TrackPoint use, palmrest depth, overall typing touch and feel, and the design of controls such as volume and mute. Over 800 respondants took the survey. Having this kind of user feedback to help steer future design directions is a gift. Collectively we learned a lot about peoples use patterns and favorite features.
Highlights of what we learned
Almost no interest in the touchpad.
Little interest in having a dedicated number pad. We’ve heard this one before.
Touch and feel should be equal to ThinkPad notebooks.
Buttons such as volume, mute, etc. should match the ThinkPad notebook experience.
Some interest in a wireless version, but far from unanimous.
Reduced price prefered. Imagine that.
Beauty shot showing the design and nice matte finish
We just announced an updated external ThinkPad keyboard that takes into account all of this feedback. The keyboard layout, touch and feel matches the T400s as close as humanly possible. This includes the updates to the now famous “supersized” escape and delete keys as well as the volume and mute buttons. We also removed the touchpad and dedicated numberpad. The keyboard is now spill resistant just like a ThinkPad and there is nice place to store excess cord. We made sure the feet that create inclination have a nice rubber coating so the keyboard won’t slide around on your desk. These details really matter. Collectively, the changes we made allowed us to reduce the price by 40$. Amazing!
Top study model is fome core with paper keyboard printout
Just like any ThinkPad branded product, we spent a lot of time tweaking and tuning everything on this keyboard. We made nearly a dozen models before it was given the green light to manufacture. The fidelity of the models range from simple fome core studies to highly accurate 3D models made from CAD data. We even designed the bottom to make sure it looked and worked exactly the way we wanted. I thought I would share an early sketch of the bottom side and how it finally ended up. Make sure you notice the 2 drain holes.
Early sketch of the bottom side showing cord storage concept
Final design of the bottom side showing a much simpler cord storage design
I really like this keyboard and how it matches my new T400s. The feel is fantastic. Thanks for all the feedback that helped us to design it. Who knows maybe we will eventually make a wireless version.
David Hill
Lenovo Meet the Modder Dean Liou
Lenovo Meet the modder- Chris Blarsky Dairy 2
Lenovo Meet the modder- Chris Blarsky Dairy 1
Lenovo H320 desktop
September 2nd, 2009 1:41 pm
Looks very cool.
Could you make the Fn-Key swappable?
This would make it even better.
September 2nd, 2009 1:44 pm
I have a ThinkPad Travel UltraNav USB Keyboard which I am using daily. It has been saving my fingers since for work I am required to type on the keyboard of a different brand (D3ll) of laptop.
Some how I bought the Travel UltraNav with a big discount in Brazil two years ago.
And now with seeing the new one I simply need to have it. I looks gorgeous! Yes, I might be the one missing the touchpad (I use both).
The lower cost I definitely appreciate, but still my wife will complain why I need two and she will notice the difference if I just exchange them quietly.
Don’t care.
So any indication when it will be available in Europe or Brasil?
And of course you can’t comment on future products but I am saving for one regardless so I can buy it when it comes out. A Tablet pc with a higher resolution screen? 13″ with a wxga+ resolution? Or better. Please do a Tablet PC survey.
And I love Lenovoblogs and the design matters you show.
Thank you
September 2nd, 2009 1:51 pm
Bravo! Nice work!
And I love the cord detail – simple and logical. You (Lenovo) should make a mouse like that also.
Example
September 2nd, 2009 1:56 pm
[...] [Design Matters] SHARETHIS.addEntry({ title: "More details on ThinkPad USB TrackPoint Keyboard", url: [...]
September 2nd, 2009 2:13 pm
Please make a wireless version! I’m constantly swapping between lenovo machines at work and would love to get rid of my wired keyboards. Love the details on designs!
September 2nd, 2009 2:15 pm
It has Windows key – great !
Im not sure if I would use touchpad. Never did with Thinkpad anyway…
However I would love to have two versions. One for mobile (without number pad) and one for home, desktop use (with number pad). Im addicted to my x200 tablet keyboard. Please let me enjoy it while I use desktop PC too !
How about USB ports ? Does it have extra USB ports ? I heard that older one didnt have USB 2.0 but 1.0. Id love to have like 3 additional USB 2.0 ports, for thumbdrive etc when you dont have easy access to your thinkpad or ultrabase.
Im not sure If I like new design with gigant Esc and Del keys. It would be great that I can put in the case the keyboard I really like and enjoy – X200 series keyboard. Please think about switchable keyboard. Everybody would be happy.
It isnt wireless
Well I really hope that will be… we have too many wires around us, on desks, in offices …
Please reply to my ideas, Im very curious what do you think.
Cheers
September 2nd, 2009 2:52 pm
I have one use for touchpad: scrolling. In Linux you can use whole area of the touchpad for scrolling, so it’s very handy to have your index finger on Trackpoint and scroll with your thumb.
September 2nd, 2009 3:17 pm
At work, I nosh and slurp my coffee at my desk. My ThinkPad (an R61) stays on my credenza, safely out of harm’s way, while I type on a PS/2 IBM Travel Keyboard (89P8500). My stress level is much lower since I know that a spill will cost me, at most, $70. Your new travel keyboard is tempting me to lay waste to my IBM keyboard–oops, did I just spill that coffee?
September 2nd, 2009 3:18 pm
Nice work! When can we expect other keyboard layouts, e.g. Swedish?
September 2nd, 2009 3:20 pm
Awesome keyboard!
Please let us know when it will be available in Europe.
If you’re going to make a wireless version, please use Bluetooth. This would be a great combo with my ThinkPad Bluetooth Laser Mouse. And I could easily lean back on my chair and use the keyboard/trackpoint on my lap while using the big external display that I have.
Finally, I’m glad you noticed how the survey (in which I took part) helped you. I hope we will see more of them concerning all your future designs, including new ThinkPads, not just the accessories.
Well done!
September 2nd, 2009 3:28 pm
Thanks for always communicating with your customers. I ended up buying my first Thinkpad (the X301) because of your blog. I was able to appreciate Lenovo’s attention to design. Nice job on the keyboard. Being a desktop keyboard, would have been nice to have the number pad. I like the fact that I can now finally order a desktop keyboard that matches the non-std Fn-Ctrl keys on my Thinkpad. Your old design was a non-starter because of the lack of the Windows key. Please continue to blog. Keep up the great work.
September 2nd, 2009 3:51 pm
if this keyboard doesn’t provide bluetooth connectivity, (besides windows key) this is a backward step thus a marketing gag. sorry
September 2nd, 2009 3:58 pm
I updated the post to include another beauty shot. Wanted to make certain everyone knew the plastic is not overtly glossy. Thanks for all the interest in this.
September 2nd, 2009 4:03 pm
How is it a step backwards? If anything it is a side-step perhaps. Lower cost is certainly appreciated at least.
September 2nd, 2009 4:05 pm
Ran across this earlier today while shopping for accessories on the Lenovo website. Didn’t buy it because the picture on the shop web site was crap. I was going to contact you for more details, so, glad to see this post. I might just go back and buy one now even though the palm rest is still too big for me. Will have to give it the Dremel treatment if I get it.
September 2nd, 2009 4:33 pm
This is great! Love the new features. But until a wireless version is released with bluetooth or some other wireless tech (and maybe along with Logitech’s battery sipping tech on their new wireless keyboards), I think I’ll hold out.
September 2nd, 2009 4:37 pm
david – will a numeric keypad version be released in the future or is this the final (and only) product? as an industrial designer, i’m surprised you didn’t find value in a dedicated number pad for entering measurements.
how long is the USB cable? is there an on-board USB 2.0 hub? hopefully you considered those of us who will want to plug in a wacom intuos4 and USB numeric keypad (to make up for the lack of on-board keypad).
September 2nd, 2009 4:43 pm
edit: nevermind on the hub… it doesn’t have one. those who wanted to save a few bucks won the battle. sadly, everything these days is a race for the best price and not the best quality.
for me this keyboard fixes one problem (adds a windows key) and creates two more (subtracts numberpad and USB hub). i’ll have to stick with my current ultranav keyboard a while longer.
September 2nd, 2009 4:45 pm
This thing is a beaut. I concur with the comments made by erik, regarding the numpad and usb port, so i can plug in a laser mouse.
Maybe another model with the numbpad and usb ports.
A job well done.
September 2nd, 2009 5:26 pm
Absolutely brilliant. What an amazingly fast turnaround too, I didn’t expect this to pop up until at least early next year, you guys must’ve been itching to get this one out! The lower price is just icing on the cake. Well done guys!
With the keyboard updated, it would be interesting for you guys to tackle design problems with the other “big 3″ peripherals – monitors and mice.
Some thoughts:
A slick ThinkPad mouse would probably be an easy sell to people who are already buying the keyboard. How you could innovate on it, I’m not sure. The one thing I like about Apple’s mouse is that it allows scrolling in any direction. Like a TrackPoint. I believe you’ve tried something like this on a mouse before, maybe worth revisiting.
I find current display designs frustrating (from the likes of Dell), even when the panels themselves are very good. The nicest monitors I’ve used are perhaps the old Sony line, which had lots of convenience features like (reasonably good) inline speakers (see SDM-X82) and Eco-buttons (which halved display brightness at a touch – great for evenings). If Lenovo developed some well thought I’d designs I think people would be happy to pay a little extra in the same way they do today for an Eizo or Apple Cinema display.
September 2nd, 2009 5:49 pm
For those in europe, this is already available like in the US.
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILib.....0A33E7FE8A
Ordered mine just now without an ounce of hesitation!
September 2nd, 2009 6:00 pm
David, your teams dedication to design quality has again paid off. Keep up the good work because it is very much appreciated by ThinkPad users.
September 2nd, 2009 6:25 pm
Thanks so much for making this product, and for listening. All the design decisions are perfect (especially NO touchpad and NO number pad). This product may not sell for much individually, but it locks me even more deeply into ThinkPads and ThinkStations. I’m typing this on the old model external keyboard, but I’ve just ordered two new ones.
September 2nd, 2009 6:27 pm
It didn’t occur to me to look in the Keyboard & Mouse Combo section for online shopping. I think of the trackpoint not as a mouse but as an alternative to one. Others may not come across this great new keyboard. Consider including it in the plain old Keyboard section.
September 2nd, 2009 6:35 pm
Gaurav, thanks for the link but I don’t see a German version there. Anyone know when it’s going to be available?
BTW, I think I read somewhere that not all Fn- shortcuts will be supported on all ThinkPads. Will for example the Fn+F5 work on a T60? What about the volume buttons?
September 2nd, 2009 6:37 pm
Wow, just what I have been waiting for! Really appreciate the attention to detail. Now the question is… when willIbe able to buy one in Canada?
September 2nd, 2009 7:13 pm
David,
Being one of the users who commented and voted in your Dec survey…I would like to say thanks for actually taking the time to query for user input and follow through. Well done! I had never heard of your blog until I went looking for a WIRELESS keyboard w/ the trackpoint feature…I’ve followed it ever since.
I agree that this current rendition of the keyboard is all it should be (even price point) ….but one feature that would have easily put it over the top is making it wireless. While you’ll likely find quite a lot of individuals who object to still being tethered by a cord….I think you’d find almost none who would object to being freed from the cord (batteries being the only concern). As a regular desktop keyboard and especially as a travel keyboard, cord clutter is can be almost as annoying as design flaws and track pads getting in the way.
Just my 2 cents worth of design logic…I’ll probably buy this corded version if there are no immediate plans to release a cordless version ….but will prob buy the cordless version when ever it is released. Thx.
September 2nd, 2009 11:14 pm
Ar….great keyboard, hope this keyboard will available in Asia market…
But, I hope Lenovo can produce a version which included num pad
September 2nd, 2009 11:53 pm
David, I’m a T400s owner and want to say how much I absolutely love the new keyboard.
The double-size Esc and Del keys are just remarkable. I’m a touch typist, but I used to look down at the keyboard to make sure I was not hitting F1 and Ins instead of the intended keys. Now I never make those mistakes, and I don’t even have to look down.
I’m surprised to hear little interest in a touchpad. But maybe that is because most people only have experience with a pre-T400s touchpad. The T400s touchpad is by far the best I’ve ever used. The coating gives tactile feedback about how far you’ve moved your finger, and the multi-touch gestures are absolutely phenomenal. The “tap zones” are great – I have one set for Back and one set for Alt+Tab (switch applications).
September 3rd, 2009 12:08 am
Very nice looking keyboard. I’m curious if Lenovo has been able to come up with a coating or something to prevent oily fingers from turning the keys “glossy” or rub off the key marking over time. These keyboards always look beautiful in the beginning, but after a year of hard use, I wouldn’t want to hand it off to anyone else.
September 3rd, 2009 1:32 am
Mmm. Want. When will this be available internationally?
September 3rd, 2009 3:02 am
It’s design looks fine so far and if it is also sturdy with good key typing feeling, I’ll have to buy some of these.
September 3rd, 2009 3:40 am
I look forward to a US/English keyboard in this format showing up on the Dutch Lenovo site. I can see it on the UK one but they won’t allow entering a non-UK shipping/billing address.
thanks for making it.
September 3rd, 2009 3:46 am
Great work – i’m queuing up right now to buy two to replace my old version usb trackpoint travel keyboards (that has served me very well). Looks like no USB ports – will have to live with that, guess thats part of the price reduction?
September 3rd, 2009 3:51 am
Fantastic seeing something coming out after providing the input!
Just like everyone else, I would like it in my language (swedish) – but I found out it already is there!
Well, I have a problem with this one. I’m quite surprised no one has mentioned it. A Win key is sure good, but it makes the Ctrl and Alt keys way too small!
And we’ve talked about the solution earlier, get rid of the Fn key! Make it a button instead!
But except from that it’s very good and quite much what we wanted. If it were wireless too I would probably buy it despite the bottom row key mess.
And as a complement to this external keyboard, as well as a complement to the inbuilt keyboard, I would like a separate numeric keypad. With the same feel, of course, preferably a few extra keys (freely mappable), and optimally a TrackPoint!
When using a numeric keypad I find myself reverting to the inbuilt “hidden” one for two reasons:
- Nearer to the TrackPoint
- Nearer to more keys, for CAD commands and such
- Better keys
If this numpad were for real I’d buy it in an instant, same goes for the mentioned fixes of the external keyboard.
Poor David, what a weird crowd of customers we are. He follows what we say and still we’re not happy!
September 3rd, 2009 4:25 am
The keyboard is very cool. A great piece of hardware.
I anyway see 2 main big drawbacks:
1) the windows key is useless and therefore should be removed as soon as possible
2) It should be provided also a wireless model (bluethoot is preferred).
September 3rd, 2009 4:53 am
Yay, true love! though i join the crowd that want that numpad as a clip-on extra
September 3rd, 2009 6:53 am
How about a matching successor of the 41A5090 (num keypad) And of course wireless.
If logitech is able to fit it in a slim design, Lenovo must be able to do an even better job!
September 3rd, 2009 7:46 am
Dave, thanks for the post.
Actually i ordered one two days ago, along with my T400s. I was staggering between the new version and the old one with numpad and trackpad. the newer version won: good job!
I like the touch pad also only for scrolling. No use for it to control the mouse, there i’m trackpoint addict, which is also the reason i’d like to replace my desktop keyboard. No reach to the mouse any longer. But surely i will miss the scrolling functionality. Page up and Page Down will be my friends from now on. Luckily they are much more reachable than on a desktop keyboard.
Also i frequently use the numpad, but i think i will get used to overlaid one. Let’s see.
cheers
Hecke
September 3rd, 2009 10:07 am
David,
I love the concept, but when will Lenovo offer a split keyboard such as the Microsoft Natural series? For a lot of two fingered typists, the split increases comfort and speed by reducing finger conflict in the “t-f-g-h” region at the center of the keys.
I realize the trackpoint would then be exposed and in the gap – but I suspect a lot of other natural keyboard fans would appreciate the combination of ergonomic help and ThinkPad keyboard quality and excellence.
David Churbuck
September 3rd, 2009 10:52 am
Very nice, and at a viable price! TBH your T400s keyboard is the best you’ve ever made, what with the key changes and improved non cheaptastic volume/thinkvantage buttons – wish I could retrofit it into my W700!
September 3rd, 2009 11:48 am
Gaurav Sharma,
There is a Lenovo mouse with a sort of trackpoint-style middle button. “Scrollpoint” series (there is currently one 2-button scrollpoint, there used to be one with extra side buttons as well iirc).
I’m posting this half to help you, and half to encourage a revival of the Scrollpoint series ;]
Scrollpoint two-button mouse:
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILib.....0940B163AB
As for the Scrollpoint Pro with more than two buttons, I’m sure you can still find one through online shopping if you want.
September 3rd, 2009 11:53 am
And as long as I’m wishing for product revivals, a new L220X (22″ WUXGA S-PVA) monitor with LED backlighting like the L2440X would be much appreciated.
Are there any plans to put out some new premium-panel Thinkvision displays?
September 3rd, 2009 12:00 pm
A perfect sleeve, and keyboard right after I buy 2 space saver IIs for around the same price each :/ I’m unemployed at the moment, but the new! low! prices keep them right in my reach. What’s gonna be next, a $400 netbook on 9/9/9?
I kid (but I hope I’m not
David and the gang, keep up the great work!
September 3rd, 2009 1:27 pm
Why include bluetooth as an option in the system if you don’t offer any options that use the system?
September 3rd, 2009 1:37 pm
OK, what’s up with this?? … http://www.engadget.com/2009/0.....unleashed/
This keyboard looks pretty nice. So, where is THAT design coming from? Honestly, I’ll take it, and I hope Lenovo isn’t ridiculous and keeping the keyboard exclusive to a single product. People are already commenting on how they would like that keyboard.
So, where can I get it??
September 3rd, 2009 5:22 pm
@Joseph: A really interesting product, at least the remote… but it’s all flashy. I would certainly not like that keyboard.
So, now I have had time to ponder about this keyboard and away, and not surprisingly, a little off-topic I got a very interesting idea.
I was wondering how I would use such a keyboard. Well, not when carrying around my laptop, of course. So that would be when connected to another monitor, at home for instance. But still, that’s a great keyboard. I got to find some travel use for it… that would be if the onboard keyboard were not decent quality. Would never happen with a ThinkPad. But wait a minute…
My phone! I would like to connect that keyboard to my mobile phone! Well, what about having a TrackPoint on the phone? Know what, I would like a ThinkPhone!
- – - – - – - -
Imagine it. A ThinkPhone.
That is not some iPhone-killer. It’s more the ultimate replacement for an old HTC. It may even give the Blackberry a hard time.
Imagine scrolling through your phone in both directions, using a TrackPoint located under your thumb. That is in the upper right corner of the phone when it’s laying comfortably in your hand. Anyone who has a navigation button there?
Then click buttons, three or four of them. Along the left edge of the phone, under your fingers. Big screen. Touch doesn’t really matter. If, it should be the iPhone way: fast and multi. Not those pressure-sensing ones intended for a stylus.
Imagine having a phone with the right texture, so that it wont slip out of your fingers as soon as the rain comes down. And then not to have to worry if you do drop it.
Imagine Windows Mobile 7, the choice of Linux, Intel Atom CPUs. Enough work memory. Fast. SD-slot for storage. And putting this keyboard to it. You wouldn’t need to carry your laptop for some writing.
Imagine the ThinkPhone.
Now come back to earth. What about your phone? Are you happy with it? Or how would you want it?
- – - – - – - -
I know it is a rather crazy idea, and very far from reality. Probably David Hill and his team would need ten years for this to happen. But that keyboard was surprisingly quick…
One can always dream, and sometimes, it becomes true!
September 3rd, 2009 7:31 pm
O8h7w, you’re not alone thinking about a ThinkPhone. On many of the details we do not agree, I think your suggestion is too much a very small ThinkPad/pc and too little a phone. The design should primarily come from the intended use, not from what it’s family looks like.
A certain common neighbour country of us makes some great phones called the E-series, once I had an information systems student ask me whether the black E51 next to my T61 on my desk also was a Lenovo product, as they appeared to share a common design language.
Also look at the 52, 55, 71 and coming 72. Thin, robust, great (and for the 55, odd) keys, long battery life… The same words would be just as correct describing a ThinkPad!
September 4th, 2009 12:18 am
i would go for the phone, immediately!
but i did not catch your placement of trackpoint and buttons…
September 4th, 2009 4:34 am
I have TP external keyboard with Numeric keys and its fantastic. Hope there will be this new keyboard also with Numeric keys.
September 4th, 2009 5:57 am
But, O8h7w, if i have to carry the external keyboard around, i can as well put the T400s in my bag. It’s not that much of a difference concerning dimensions, and weight is not so important, that i will abandon a large screen.
But if Lenovo manages to produce a smartphone with a keyboard that is worthy being called Thinkphone, i would surely drop my issues against cell phones.
September 4th, 2009 2:43 pm
Why no Fingerprint device included in this nice keyboard.What a waste and pity!
I always need to type in so many passwords.However, since i used thinkpad with fingerprint & Password Manager, i just use my finger to recall the computer what have typed before.Fast & convenient!
So please at least consider an alternative luxury option of this keyboard including a fingerprint device.(I know the production cost will increase but we do need fingerprint!)
September 4th, 2009 5:16 pm
P.S. David you have the first image wrongly sized in the HTML, so it appears pixellated (at least in Firefox) more than it should. Try pasting it in another application and comparing (you probably need to remove the forced size attributes).
September 5th, 2009 7:38 am
This keyboard looks great. Just to dispel doubts a little bit concerning a wireless version. Right now we’re using wireless keyboard/ mouse versions on our breadbords and one cable-based version (which is horrible for lab use). Since we are all ThinkPad fans and lacking in space a small and convenient soloution would be best. But fact is, there is no such device on the market right now! So, if you’re thinking of building one – don’t hesitate anymore.
p.s. and please do not use bluetooth – it’s mainly not compatible to very different pc gear and this would be a drawback for most of the users.
September 5th, 2009 1:37 pm
I see some of you did catch my thought on the ThinkPhone, but not to the point of full understanding.
Have you seen the Bang & Olufsen Serenata? It’s over 1000€ no good phone, but it has a point. It handles somewhere in the near of a upside-down Ipod. Now instead of that big touch-click wheel, take the TrackPoint. Move it to the right so that your thumb will not ever be over the screen.
And the buttons, have you seen the Sony Ericsson W902? I use one myself and one thing I don’t like about it is the placement of the play control buttons. They’re on the right side of the phone, to be pressed only with an awkward angle of the phone as well as the thumb.
But flip this one over too, and suddenly those buttons are under your fingers normally not in use at all handling a phone! Should be adjusted towards the top of the ThinkPhone, though.
Then about the size… for sure I don’t want it big. Some unnecessary big things common in phones:
- Useless camera
- Inbuilt keyboard
- Extra speakers
- Media functionality (maybe not that big physically)
- Oversized batteries
I think I’ll have to explain the last one. My phone, and many others, can work for up to a week during normal use. For me, and I think a lot of us agree, there’s no harm in charging it every night. I do that, meaning that battery has never been below 90% of it’s capacity except for some odd weekend away.
And when you can charge it from a USB port or with a wall wart or in the car…
This also means there’s no need for fast-charging capability. I bet there’s some hardware involved in that, from what I know about charging batteries. Being a RC racer that’s quite a bit.
This phone should be no bigger than the Xperia X1, maybe a little wider but not that deep. An arced back would be good for the grip as well as the “experienced size”.
And maybe my assumptions about batteries and charging habits are ridiculous, but I know only of my world… if you have anything at all to say, you’re welcome!
September 5th, 2009 3:28 pm
Please, please, please make a wireless version.
It would be perfect for my HTPC. It does not have to be Bluetooth, just make a wireless version with little og ny delay om mouse movements.
Did I say “please”?
-oep
September 5th, 2009 8:29 pm
OK, so maybe the A600’s wireless keyboard is too flashy for some, but its very existence makes me wonder just how many divisions are working toward the same end, and perhaps this is why it’s taking so long to get a proper wireless keyboard out. A lot of redundant engineering/design going on? Competition between new PRC designers and old guard? Perhaps it’s like the horse, where some mountains rose and now we have zebras, camels, and Shetland Ponies?
For all of these years of harping, and to have just *another* USB variation appear, I would like to cash in and take what I can. That is, it seems that a different group was able to convince SOMEONE that a wireless keyboard was worth developing and selling. I think this keyboard absolutely should, for the subset of people in this discussion that might find it acceptable, be available as an accessory.
September 6th, 2009 8:10 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 8:18 am
[...] Tian] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the [...]
September 6th, 2009 8:19 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 8:52 am
Congratuations. Great product.
However I have to admit, that with an additional touchpad (and a fingerprint reader) this keyboard would even be better. It would be perfect then.
September 6th, 2009 8:57 am
1.) There are still people who needs the numeric keypad. So a version with keypads would be highly appreciated.
2.) USB ports to attach a mouse and thumb drives (wireless keyboards matches with wireless mouse. Wired keyboards usually matches with wired mouse.) The trackpoint maybe useful at times but i would rather work for long periods using a mouse.
3.) A multicard reader. SD, MS.
September 6th, 2009 9:04 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store Filed under: Peripherals [...]
September 6th, 2009 9:06 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 9:07 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 9:08 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 9:10 am
Agree with almost all the design changes – wireless is pretty pointless on a keyboard, love the Thinkpad keys, Trackpoint is great and a trackpad is superfluous – but I can’t understand why you’d ditch the dedicated number pad. I use mine constantly *constantly* and I’m not an accountant or cashier or whatever. It’s just so handy for inputting numbers.
This may sound a little odd, but I also find myself using the enter key on the trackpad more than the regular one – having it in the corner like that just makes it really easy to hit.
September 6th, 2009 9:12 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 9:14 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 9:26 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 9:31 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 9:33 am
A big thumbs up from me. The last iteration was too pricey for my pocketbook and I didn’t care for the touchpad, so this hits the sweet spot for me, wireless or not. This TrackPoint addict is a happy man!
September 6th, 2009 10:18 am
I am a Thinkpad R61i user so I don’t mind the Fn key at all, I like it where it is. But I have a strong objection against the Enter key. Why did you make it one-line instead of two-line? I bought R61i three years ago and I was specifically looking for laptop with large Enter key. It has all the advantages – you use Enter often, you usually hit it without looking and you often need keyboard even when you are otherwise just clicking or typing. On the other hand, the key you put above Enter is ridiculously large, given that I use this key like twice a month and so do many others. Please, consider making the keyboard better with large Enter again. Thank you!
September 6th, 2009 10:43 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 10:47 am
When will this be available outside of the USA?
September 6th, 2009 10:48 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 11:20 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 11:52 am
I have 5 TP Travel Kybrds. I use them on all my machines and I have 4 Thinkpads. I have hounded lenovo Tech for years for a wireless version since I first acquired a TP USB Travel unit.
I agree with previous posters that it is strange that one development group wants wireless and another finds it not worthy. All the most popular keyboards today are wireless. I also have the Logitech DiNovo Edge and Mini and they are superb and highly functional. I still prefer the Lenovo trackpoint to the Logitech trackpad.
So many seem to want the NumPad yet it has been available for years on the previous models.
WIRELESS!
WIRELESS!
WIRELESS?
BLUETOOTH WIRELESS!!
All the rest of the upgrades seem to be window dressing without WIRELESS.
September 6th, 2009 12:02 pm
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 12:04 pm
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 12:17 pm
Glad to see trackpoint only on new “sk-8845″.
USB Version,with 2 usb hub
PS/2 Version,none usb hub
Wireless Version,none usb hub(dreaming..)
September 6th, 2009 12:41 pm
I came to this site from today’s story on Engadget. You’ve got a wonderful product whose potential is not limited to ThinkPad users, a loyal crowd as it is. I have used multiple generations of ThinkPads since the T20. The T400s keyboard is honed to near perfection. With that, I believe there is great market potential for desktop PC users using bloated keyboards and shrinking desk space. Keep the wired version, but please, please make a wireless one. Requiring a tether for this keyboard is an unnecessary compromise. I would buy a wireless one today, but hesitate routing another wire to the back of my desktop. How about leaving room for an optional plug-in module that would convert the present one to wireless, and make the cord detachable?
September 6th, 2009 12:41 pm
I very much like what I see.
If it becomes WIRELESS (bluetooth), I would buy one for use as a couch keyboard (PS3/HTPC). However, as it stands I’m quite happy to stick with my very good (and discontinued) Space Saver II Keyboards (I have 2x PS/2, and 1x USB).
September 6th, 2009 1:15 pm
What’s up with the comment spamming? Yes, it’s a good keyboard, but wireless is a feature that a LOT of people want. Sure, some don’t care, but there is a big market out that that wants them.
So, what’s up with the A600’s keyboard? Where can I get it. Or, when will you guys make THIS one wireless? I’ll take EITHER. I’ll spend money now, on either, and throw away my DiNovo Edge.
September 6th, 2009 1:58 pm
I know I’m not the first one to say this, but this keyboard isn’t interesting until it’s WIRELESS.
The WIRELESS version (Bluetooth or USB adapter, don’t really care) would make a great HTPC keyboard, or companion to a Thinkpad docked with a large monitor.
Unfortunately, for the applications where I’d buy a keyboard (configuring servers doesn’t count, you use whatever $10 POS you have around), an inferior wireless keyboard beats out a nice wired Thinkpad keyboard.
September 6th, 2009 1:59 pm
Joseph,
If you really want the A600 keyboard, take a look at the Logitech PS3 Mediaboard – it’s pretty much the same, and works with Windows if you have a Bluetooth adapter. Downsides are no Win key and few special keys. I haven’t used the A600 wireless keyboard, but unless the shiny patch above the touchpad does something special, the Logitech PS3 board is as close as you’ll get for now.
http://www.logitech.com/index......p;cl=us,en
As for me, I’ll wait (patiently) for a wireless trackpoint board.
September 6th, 2009 2:00 pm
I have the UltraNav USB keyboard. Everything is great except the keys are nowhere near the quality of the thinkpad keyboard — they feel mushy, loose and no tactile at all. So after buying it I seldom use it. I hope this one solve this problem. Key tactile feeling is THE MOST important feature of a thinkpad keyboard. Other design stuff (key layout, stick vs. touchpad, etc.) are good but not critical. Without good key-pressing feeling, this one will be yet another on-shelf keyboard. Look forward to someone to test it and post a review on typing feeling.
September 6th, 2009 2:53 pm
I have used the previous model for some years now.
Probably one of the best keyboards out there.
When getting used to the TrackPoint (the pointing stick) and the short distance to the left mouse key below the spacebar…. then using most other keyboards is like going back to the middleage.
One thing I do not understand though is why they could not ship the new keyboard with wireless support.
I want such a keyboard with a wireless option
NOW!
Another thing that is kind of weird. Why the h*** does it not come with drivers for MAC.
I’m a software developer and the keyboard is probably the tool that I use the most. Lately I have been thinking about buying a MacBookPro 13 or 15 incher… this way I can have both MAC and WIN OS’es, and can test the web apps in both env.
I went to a nearby shop with my IBM (Lenovo) USB Travel Keyboard, and after a few minutes it was working (kind of) on the MAC.
When I say kind of, it is because we where unable to get the TrackPoint as responsive as it is on my XP comp. at home, even with sensitivity set to highest.
So, Lenovo, please come up with drivers for MAC ASAP.
Anyway, thanks to Lenovo (or is it IBM still) for making this awesome keyboard.
September 6th, 2009 3:01 pm
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design process Read – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 6th, 2009 3:14 pm
Argh, the Ctrl-key is NOT in the corner!?!
Why not move the Enter or Delete key while you’re at it? It is nearly impossible to Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V with this design…
I have used a Lenovo keyboard before, also with the Fn-key in the corner, and I never could got used to it.
Any reason why the almost-never-used FN-key is in the corner?
September 6th, 2009 4:12 pm
[...] Read | Permalink | Email this | Comments [...]
September 6th, 2009 4:18 pm
[...] en la página europea ronda los 60 euros. Cosas veredes.[Artículo en inglés]Read | Permalink | Email [...]
September 6th, 2009 4:37 pm
[...] en la página europea ronda los 60 euros. Cosas veredes.[Artículo en inglés]Read | Permalink | Email [...]
September 6th, 2009 6:51 pm
I’ve been waiting for a Wireless version for a year. I’d buy 2 wireless ones today. Please save me from my Microsoft keyboards and build a wireless version.
September 6th, 2009 8:25 pm
This is a cool keyboard. Seriously cool. I’m wondering whether to splash-out myself and replace my desktop keyboard at work. I use a ThinkPad laptop out of the office…
September 6th, 2009 8:40 pm
[...] Read | Permalink | Email this | Comments [...]
September 6th, 2009 11:04 pm
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design process Read – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 7th, 2009 1:20 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design process Read – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 7th, 2009 1:40 am
Great! Now put the Fn key below the Ctrl key.
September 7th, 2009 2:06 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design process Read – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 7th, 2009 3:15 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design process Read – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 7th, 2009 3:16 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design process Read – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 7th, 2009 3:16 am
Amazing keyboard. I sure hope its keys do have the original ThinkPad feel (just like in my retired R50e). As soon it’s available in Poland, I’m getting it!
September 7th, 2009 3:16 am
[...] [SOURCE | VIA] [...]
September 7th, 2009 3:23 am
@ Josh
Yes, I’ve seen this one. I didn’t get it because most reviews say it has a too healthy appetite for batteries. I would prefer a trackpoint wireless, but I will take a well built/good looking keyboard with a trackpad. I have the DiNovo Edge, but it’s way bulkier than it needs to be. I like the “Thinkpad” keyboard for its conciseness, and it appears that the A600 (despite not having a trackpoint) does retain/reference a clean/semi-industrial look.
I don’t understand why Lenovo hasn’t responded to the market with a wireless keyboard? They are coming out with a BUNCH of new items that scream HTPC and casual user. Q100/Q110, Q700, D400, U450. Where is the companion keyboard???
The A600’s really looks like the first pancake in this direction, and I would expect the next Lenovo wireless keyboard to be a successor of it rather than the keyboard featured at the top of this page.
In either case, WHAT IS TAKING LENOVO SOOOO LONG??? There wouldn’t be do much pent up whazza if someone could just say here what the real delay is. EVERYONE else has wireless keyboards that reflect their esthetics: Apple, Microsoft, Logitech, Dell, HP, gaaaa!!
September 7th, 2009 3:55 am
Great job. I absolutely love the keyboard on my Thinkpad (x61) and really wanted something similar for my desktop. Even with a full mouse, the trackpoint’s position makes it great for quick manipulation of the cursor. I will recommend this item to friends. I just hope that a wireless edition is also in store for my media center (although for that use, even smaller x61/x200 layouts could be used).
September 7th, 2009 4:37 am
Next stop: get rid of the Capslock key.
Really, just put Ctrl there, maybe swap the two, make it configurable or whatever.
September 7th, 2009 4:45 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design process Read – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store Filed under: Peripherals [...]
September 7th, 2009 5:11 am
Would love this… if it were wireless…
Before that no thank you.
September 7th, 2009 5:16 am
When in China’s listed ah, China’s price is still to be 80 U.S. dollars ah, violence, ah
September 7th, 2009 7:49 am
[...] Maggiori informazioni e la possibilità di acquistarla online sul sito di Lenovo. Via DesignMatters. [...]
September 7th, 2009 7:58 am
I got really excited when I saw that you finally got rid of that lousy touchpad which I never used, but unfortunately you implemented a lot of useless/annoying stuff that make this design a no go.
Actually I don’t care if ESC is supersized, but moving INS in order to supersise DEL was a really bad move. On top of that I wouldn’t buy a keyboard with windows keys even if my life depended on it. There’s just no point in these keys.
In put it simple… take a X40 and make a keyboard just like it. And, if you want to go wireless, add BlueTooth plus USB, so we can charge the keyboard everywhere.
Looking forward to buy one of your keyboards once you fixed these glitches.
September 7th, 2009 9:00 am
Definitely wireless version is needed! It’s great to me to have such a keyboard but I cannot use a cord one.
September 7th, 2009 9:01 am
This design represents the most cost effective method for Lenovo.
As basically this is a T400s keyboard with a base and the cost saving is directly passed onto the consumers.
But i guess Lenovo can expand on this line of keyboard, by offering more options.
—————
Also Lenovo have phones, but it is consistently losing money on the business unit, i am not sure if it is viable.
September 7th, 2009 9:04 am
Hi,
A nice keyboard. The feel is really fantastic that I’v got it last month.
September 7th, 2009 10:24 am
When will someone make a SPLIT-FINGER ERGONOMIC keyboard with laptop-style keys.
I’d love one, especially it was relatively compact. Most of the ergo boards are enormous, especially the Microsoft ones.
I’ve always loved thinkpad keyboards. But to type all day without developing wrist pain, I need a split-finger keyboard.
I would love, love, love, to have
(a) an ergo board with
(b) the fabulous thinkpad feel
(c) with a small desktop footprint
(d) and well designed with important keys easily accessible (esp, ESC, backspace, cursors)
The new ultranav looks great. I’m almost certain to get one.
September 7th, 2009 11:14 am
Well David Hill, Seems your pre-production survey was loaded with casual users who have less vision for wireless than the slew of responses today.
WIRELESS!!! That is spelled W-I R-E-L-E-S-S. Is Lenovo China Design team lost in the wilderness? or “wiredness” perhaps. A wired keyboard in today’s market has the appeal of USB1.0 Get with it. Listen to the feedback you have now.
I like the guy’s comment above for a plug-in module for wireless. I am so surprised that the after-marketplace has not produced an item like a wireless keyboard module considering the many odd and questionably functional USB gadgets available.
September 7th, 2009 11:24 am
This is great timing! I’m a fan of the last IBM/Lenovo Trackpoint-only compact keyboard – the SpaceSaver II – but they are becoming increasingly difficult to find.
Placed my order already!
September 7th, 2009 11:56 am
This need’s some spam blocking, that is even more critical than getting that keyboard wireless right now…
I see some Lenovo phones on test sites when I search for them, but I cannot find them on any Lenovo site. Not that I know chinese, but I tried. If someone has got a link it would be highly appreciated.
And I wonder, what phone does dear David use?
September 7th, 2009 1:33 pm
One suggestion; the Lenovo.com web site should have large pictures of the keyboards so people can more easily see which arrangement of keys each of the various different keyboards are available for sale. It would make much easier for people considering to buy the keyboards to decide which ones to buy.
September 7th, 2009 4:37 pm
Theodore, perhaps we should start an initiative: “Improving the web sites of Lenovo” I’m sure, there will be more suggestions than comments to this post, including spam;-)
No, seriously Dave, is there a person in charge of the web site who is reachable in any way? Just give us a forum, we will guide him/her!
cheers
Hecke
(Meanly, the website presenting the T400s changed appearance in the last week, that i had a hard time finding again items to convince my boss to buy it…)
September 7th, 2009 7:14 pm
Can anyone explain why wireless mass-market is so hard for Lenovo to understand? They’ve created a wireless keyboard for the A600, but it can’t be had without a computer purchase (WHAT is WRONG with Lenovo???). Now we have ANOTHER USB keyboard – yes, it has the love of Think in it, which I appreciate, but it’s another USB keyboard.
Where is wireless??? Can someone who knows something please help us out here? It is absurd that people like myself have been waiting YEARS to give **money** to Lenovo for a decent wireless keyboard. DO IT!
September 7th, 2009 7:36 pm
Awesome! Done and ordered… Glad to see feedback manifested in cold hard plastic. And at $50 it’s a no-think purchase, I couldn’t bring myself to buy the original at it’s high price.
September 7th, 2009 7:40 pm
1) Why this keyboard is based on T400 and not on X200?
2) Why it’s not wireless?
2a) Why it’s not Bluetooth?
3) Where can I buy this A600 keyboard w/o buying the whole unit?
September 8th, 2009 2:07 am
[...] desk could be made much better and efficient with the new dimensions in keyboard designing. The blog from Design Matters announced such a plan recently which received much popular responses to this idea. This keyboard [...]
September 8th, 2009 3:14 am
[...] Read – Lenovo DesignMatters blog post on the keyboard design processRead – ThinkPad Keyboard at the Lenovo online store [...]
September 8th, 2009 3:26 am
Nice try, but please make a WIRELESS version, using Bluetooth.
And, make it possible to recharge the batteries during use with a simple usb cord (connected to computer or wall outlet).
And please, if you choose to go the rechargeable route, use regular high power AA or AAA NiMH batteries. Easy and cheap to replace when they die.
September 8th, 2009 3:59 am
Fantastic keyboard, with bluetooth support it would target a lot bigger market. Trademark of Lenovo/IBM notebooks is quality keyboard and trackpoint. Imagine cross-selling opportunity when all types of customers (pc, mobile pc’s, htpc, gaming consoles, …) get used to the keyboard and then want to buy new notebook?
Regards,
Ivan
September 8th, 2009 4:43 am
Led backlight is must. Seeing the keyboard letters in poor lighting conditions or in the evening is really a big plus. I’ve had logitech keyboard at home, which has adjustable backlight and its great. I’d love to see the same feature in this avesome product!
September 8th, 2009 5:41 am
Just perfect!
September 8th, 2009 7:57 am
Looks really wonderful. Is this available already? What’s the model number so I can order one?
September 8th, 2009 10:43 am
Just timing!!!
September 8th, 2009 11:38 am
I just received mine yesterday and found its feeling is really good. It is far better than older one and reminds me of that of 600’s. You guys did great job! And, I support your decision to focus keyboard itself and make it simple as possible.
Just one suggestion. The naming of “ThinkPad USB Keyboard with TrackPoint” is not good for distinguish it from other keyboards because such elements “ThinkPad”, “USB” and “TrackPoint” can be applied to older ones. So, I suggest to give it more specialized name or sub number like “Wireless Keyboard K340″ from Logitech.
September 8th, 2009 2:58 pm
[...] David Hill unveils the new ThinkPad external keyboard you (as in you, who read and comment on this blogs) helped design. Go read all about it. [...]
September 8th, 2009 3:45 pm
Hecke, you’ve made a good point. And it came to my mind, I have yet to see a website without an email address to the webmaster, or similar. I don’t know if there’s any laws involved or if it’s just common netiquette, but that’s not the point.
Surprisingly I didn’t find one on the Swedish website, so I moved on to the US one. By just clicking “Contact” at the bottom of the page I found this address: websales@lenovo.com
Now everyone hunt something on the nation-specific sites, and come up with what to write… I don’t think that “You’re website is part crap part disaster” will do… honestly.
I’ll try to search the Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, and maybe German sites. And sure I will write something to the address mentioned above.
- – - -
This comment was my most off-topic so far since it didn’t even mention the keyboard, but no one seems to monitor these comments except David himself the first hour or so.
September 9th, 2009 4:16 am
Not really what I was waiting for. It is not wireless. You put Bluetooth chips in Thinkpads for a reason.
I have conservative approach to keyboards. I like my insert key in right place. I like my number pad. I like ctrl key where it is supposed to be – in a lower-left corner.
On the bright side: no trackpad, nice look, spill resistance. I am gonna buy wireless edition
September 9th, 2009 8:09 am
Hello!
Thank you for all inspiring insights to your black and red world.
So, when can we expect a ThinkPhone, and what might it look like? Like this?
http://www.olletorgny.se/thinkphone/
September 9th, 2009 10:19 am
Now I’m beginning to wonder why these forums exist. Do the designers vet this stuff? All of this distraction rather takes away, it seems, from the subject at hand: the keyboard.
Yes, the keyboard is nice, and I congratulate the designers and engineers for getting out something improved over the other *wired* keyboards. Now, can we step outside the box and make a wireless keyboard?
Again, someone, preferrably the owners of this site, please explain why this is such a difficult task – especially in the wake of the A600 wireless keyboard.
September 9th, 2009 10:34 am
[...] mais no blog da Lenovo. Celular Mp10 Quadriband Vaic A1900 Com Flip E Teclado TouchMais info»R$ 299.00Mp10 [...]
September 9th, 2009 12:34 pm
I’ve been using model SK 8845 of this piece of kit for a couple of years nowon my desk and on the move. I’m amazed that there was little interest in having the touchpad. I find it indispensible, and I would go further by saying that an essential upgrade to it would be to be able to scroll up and down the page with a single swipe of the finger in the vertical at the left edge of the pad. Again,… amazed!!
Incorporating a USB at the front or near to the front at the side would be a nice touch of convenience too.
The cord channel options – there aren’t any one this new design, which is mystifying to me.
Blue return key should be inverted ‘L’ and not horizontal.
Wireless please!
Not innovative enough David.
Jason.
September 9th, 2009 2:49 pm
Wired keyboard in 2009? LOL! Does it come with a wired Thinkpad mouse accessory too? XD I would understand this *wired* thing if it is high-end audio. Hope IBM / Lenovo didn’t lean out all the smart people out of Yamato and RTP LOL!
September 9th, 2009 3:13 pm
May I ask WHY didn’t you (the loud ones) all participate in this survey?
“It’s easy to be a general after the war”
September 9th, 2009 3:42 pm
Apparently my survey responses were ignored….
Well, the delete key is bigger, which is good, but buried inside. It should be at the border of the keyboard!
I like the blue Enter key. More colour can be used for orientation!
I dislike the navigation keys being far apart – cursor arrows at bottom, home/end/pgup/pgdn at top. Ugh! Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, …
And I miss that trackpad. I find it quick & easy to use for full screen navigation when not typing.
And I share the common complaints:
– needs bluetooth connection (& AA batteries)
– USB outlets would be nice, esp if they worked thru bluetooth, but even if not
– backlighting needed
– fingerprint reader would be nice!
tOM
September 9th, 2009 3:44 pm
Oh, and I do like the cord storage. Nice design to have natural cord springiness keep the loops inside!
September 9th, 2009 3:53 pm
I got mine a few days ago. This is very well done. The keys have a very good feel. Wireless would be nice, but I wouldn’t anything pay more for it. A cord on the keyboard doesn’t really matter to me. It’s not like a mouse where you are always moving it and cord could get in the way.
September 9th, 2009 5:17 pm
This is very nice. I have been using the external Thinkpad keyboard for years. When I last winter switched to Mac (MacBook 13″) a solution with a “traditional” keyboard and a mice was so not an alternative. There is no problem to use the Thinkpad keyboard with a Mac (som workaround is needed) but it’s worth it when I still can have that good old Thinkpad feeling.
September 9th, 2009 5:29 pm
I did a test to see how much I use the number pad. I am not an accountant but still use the num pad enough to make it an annoyance not to have one. Please update this with a number pad. Or have a clip-on option or something similar. Thank you.
September 9th, 2009 5:54 pm
[...] o ovome pro?itajte na Dejvidovom blogu. Podelite ovaj sadržaj sa [...]
September 9th, 2009 6:52 pm
No one asked me about this about the TouchPad
i think its foolish to have a TrackPoint only it seems you are going backwards not forward
if its based on the T400 (that you spent so much time designing) that has a FLUSH NavPad it would be perfect for the new UltraNav keyboard then you can have a way to turn it off and no one would know its even there !!!!
can someone help me with drivers for the UltraNav PS2 travel keyboard i know my next gen desktop will not have PS2 ports
will the drivers pick up the keyboard if i use a PS2 to USB adapters or a USB port replicator that has PS2 ports (4theposter@gmail.com)
September 9th, 2009 6:58 pm
Love it! Only thing for me is the missing numpad, as I prefer this over the above qwerty numbers. Everything else I couldnt agree with more, now go make a palm rest for my t400 without the touchpad!
September 9th, 2009 9:50 pm
i just picked up two of these. the keyboard feel is excellent, it is quite possibly “as close as humanly possible” to the feel of my Thinkpad, and it is way better than the older version. and there’s no touch pad, YAY! nice job Lenovo.
now, if we could just get a version with a fingerprint reader…and backlit keys, oh man, that would be cool.
September 10th, 2009 4:55 pm
Just got mine and it looks and feels great.
As bongobongo mentioned, does anyone have a way to get this to work properly with a Mac? Would love to use it on my MacBook Pro.
This keyboard and a Logitech VX Nano is a killer combination for notebooks.
September 11th, 2009 11:07 am
I’ve had three ultranav keyboards in my time, even though I don’t use Lenovo laptops (sorry, just too expensive). Having the keyboard and mouse in my lap has saved me ergonomically – no more sore shoulders. I think this new keyboard revision is good, and I’m going to order two of them immediately. However, instead of changing this one, which appeals to a certain price point, I’d suggest creating a new pricepoint of $100 or more for those of us who want it all. And, by all, we mean:
1) Wireless
2) A hardware toggle switch to reverse the ctrl/fn buttons
3) A hardware toggle switch to turn off the forward/back buttons just above the left/right arrow keys – I hit them way to often when working, and often lose what I’ve been typing
4) All keys backlit
For #2 and #3, if the driver had these options, that would suffice, but I don’t see a driver for this keyboard on the website, so I’m assuming there is no configuration available. I’d love to be wrong
.
David, where can I send my $100 check for this new keyboard to
?
John
September 11th, 2009 12:26 pm
I just gone mine in delivered by UPS, and it looks and feels great. I’m very happy it’s a wired keyboard; my experience with Bluetooth keyboards is that they don’t work well at all. In order to save batteries, the bluetooth connection gets disconnected after a (typically very short) idle time, and then you lose keystrokes while the keyboard reconnects, or worse yet, you for some keyboards you have to go through a painful bluetooth mating procedure before the keyboard will talk to the computer or PDA/phone again. No thanks! If I want a keyboard that works reliably, I’ll stick with wired, thank you very much.
Having received the keyboard, the only complaint/suggestion I have is that I wish it had included a cheap plastic cover which would fit over the front of the keyboard to protect the keys. Given how think the keyboard is, I will very likely want to slip it into my knapsack or messenger bag so I can travel with the keyboard — and a simple plastic cover that snap onto the front of the keyboard would be all that I’d need so I could travel with it safely. I can probably rig something manually using a flat sheet of plastic and some elastic, but a black plastic cover with form-fitting sides to hold it on would have been perfect.
I *really* like how thin the keyboard is; kudo’s!!!
September 11th, 2009 6:43 pm
Happy it’s wired does-not-equal should not have a wireless model.
I have a Logitech DiNovo Edge, which has it’s own receiver, and I use it 15′ across the living room with no problems. No dropped keystrokes, and very responsive. Logitech has smartly included a charging “stand” for when the keyboard isn’t in use. When we’re done using it, we stick it in the charger and it’s ready to go when we’re back. No battery fuss at all.
September 11th, 2009 8:10 pm
For heaven’s sake please make one of these exactly like this, but that supports Bluetooth! The whole point is to use it with a laptop+external display without having to fuss with plugging the keyboard in. Besides, USB ports are precious on laptops.
September 12th, 2009 2:20 am
People deadly want a wireless keyboard to control the living room pc. Make it wireless, please.
September 12th, 2009 3:11 pm
Here’s another vote for the touchpad! Specifically since 2 finger scrolling support is so useful.
I brought the previous version of the ultranav keyboard for the touchpoint, and I am very glad that it is there b/c sometimes my finger gets tired and I switch to the touchpad.
It would be so nice to provide 2 versions of this new USB keyboard: One with no touchpad or numbers pad, and the other with both the numpad and touchpad. This was done before with 2 versions of the ultranav keyboard, so I can’t see why this can’t be done again.
Right now I’m typing this comment on the new T400s, and to be honest I’m not sure I’m a fan of the new touchpad. Even with the dots I still don’t know if I hit the edge (the dots just doesn’t scream as loud for me as a physical edge).
The other thing with the T400s touchpad is I feel that i seem to have to move my fingers much further in order to get the points to where I wanted it to be. So often when I move the pointer across the screen, i find myself repositioning my fingers in order to track my mouse point again since I am only half way there.
Weirdly, I feel that the MacBookPro’s touchpad responds more naturally than my T400s. The mouse pointer motion mimics my finger’s motion. My finger eventually becomes one with it, and I forget i’m using a device to command the mouse pointer. Very zen. I mean isn’t it what designing human input devices all about, letting you forget that you are using something but more like thinking it and it is done?
David, I have way more comments about the new design of the touchpad than I can put on the comment forum. I am also very curious as to your response to my comments. Is it possible to email you my comments?
Thanks,
Connie
September 12th, 2009 5:27 pm
Kudos to all who’s got the keyboard and posted some thoughts!
And about protection of this thing, as Theodore pointed out, I think this might be a very good use for those sleeves in the previous blog post! A ThinkPad sleeve designed to exactly fit the keyboard, that would make a real traveling solution!
On second thought, that’s so good I would consider not buying a ThinkPad when I can get the main advantage quite a lot cheaper… no, really, is that an option? Not to have the full experience, hauling around both the keyboard and a notebook(maybe a netbook).
Really, to me this is a product for home use. And that is why I want the numpad – I wouldn’t want to carry it around. And a fingerprint reader, please. I would like this wired. This is for desk use, call it office use if you want. Work to be done.
On the other hand, I would want it wireless too. But this would be in another application. For use in the couch, controlling some fun. And this time around, I don’t want the same features. No numpad, no fingerprint reade. The only thing I want to change from the actual product is to make it wireless. Really, nothing else.
Some may find it strange that I haven’t mentioned the touchpad… I don’t like them. I’m happy to be without them, but I do see my family members don’t. Really, I don’t know a single person except myself who prefers the TrackPoint… and I’m in love with it. Strange.
September 12th, 2009 6:47 pm
I’m using my new keyboard now. It’s great. The volume buttons are conflicting with my X60’s built-in buttons and OSD, but hopefully I’ll find a fix. Mute button and LED work fine.
There’s room to cut out the cord storage area and embed a USB hub inside. I have an extra Belkin Ultra-Mini USB Hub. It’ll require some cable splicing…
Yes, please put out a WIRELESS version.
Since I’ve found trackpoint, my only need for a trackpad is for when Mom borrows the laptop.
I think I’m going to like the oversized Delete key, once I get used to it.
September 12th, 2009 6:54 pm
Inside this very text box where I’m putting this comment, the scroll up/down functionality of my laptop keyboard is DIFFERENT than with this new external keyboard.
Both work but..
My X60 Tablet keyboard merely scrolls up and down, as expected and as normal.
This new external keyboard actually moves the cursor up and down through the lines of my typed text. Which is really cool. I don’t know if I like it or not. I think I might.
In MS Word, the two keyboards do not display this difference in behavior. They both function in MS Word as my built-in works in this here text box.
September 12th, 2009 7:18 pm
At the top of the page, what kind of dismissive, excuse-making, grab-onto-anything-to-deny-it comment is this??…
“Some interest in a wireless version, but far from unanimous.”
Unbelieveable. >30% of the responses specifically indicate they want wireless. And in this form it is higher. Do you read the comments here? Stop avoiding the obvious, and stop applauding yourselves for getting this keyboard out. It was a serious compromise, and I’m sure you’re proud of being able to get it out at all. Don’t take that bureaucratic cleverness as justification for leaving out a seriously important feature: wireless. This keyboard is nice but comes up very short.
This keyboard is not innovative – it shuffles existing features around into a laptop keyboard without the laptop. It might be a marvel of internal politics in convincing the accessories department to make it at all, but it does not address the very significant omission of wireless. And, I think you guys readily cut it when budgetary limits were presented.
I just got an email from Lenovo sales saying I could call in to purchase the A600’s wireless keyboard. I’m going to call them on Monday to make a purchase, since all arguments to make this keyboard wireless are obviously falling on blind eyes.
September 13th, 2009 8:24 am
To all those recommending that there be a USB hub in the keyboard, do you also want the keyboard to be tethered to a plugpack transformer plugged into the mains power supply? Because that is what is needed to ensure that such a hub will enable USB devices connected to work properly when more than one device is connected.
September 13th, 2009 10:57 am
jenifur – most mice and tablets don’t require powered hubs. we aren’t talking about plugging in printers and scanners here.
September 14th, 2009 10:35 am
Just a second ‘pop’ at this ‘keybored’ – there is nothing innovative or progressive about its design. It lags behind other boards on the market and is a wasted opportunity. Next time you want to get ideas from customers email them with a questionnaire. If you can’t take it don’t design it.
September 14th, 2009 10:51 am
Mine showed up this morning, replacing my older version model. My fingers love you guys!
Finally the external version has the actual feel of a Thinkpad keyboard! It took me about 3 seconds to decide in favor of the new Del and Esc key layout.
In fact, the only niggle I have so far is the lack of a USB socket for my external mouse, which I do use sometimes because of the extra screen area to cover on a desktop machine.
Having used both the with- and without-numpad versions of the external Thinkpad keyboard, I would add one more thing — my muscle memory uses the side of the keyboard itself as an easy registration point for my palm when I put my hands on it, which is why I really prefer the without-numpad version.
September 14th, 2009 9:54 pm
This keyboard is way too flexy. I was hoping it would match my ThinkPad T61’s keyboard for feel and precision. It does except that it flexes like the keyboards I hate on non-ThinkPad laptops. I am going to try and “home-brew” a solution since I like the idea of using this keyboard with my ThinkPad while docked.
September 14th, 2009 9:56 pm
Jason makes a good point: email a questionnaire to the customers. Posting a questionnaire on an obscure design site, where there is certain to be a strong bias BEFORE the search engines can make it available to the WWW consumer population, is *not* something you can legitimately point to and say, “see, this is what you wanted, so eat it.”
OK, maybe you don’t want to waver in front of paying customers, but this FN CTRL conceit of IBM’s, that Lenovo inherited, needs to be purged. In Windows, and more so in Linux, people use FN 1:100 against CTRL.
The ONLY legit use of having the FN in a corner spot is when it’s dark and you need to click it to turn on the keyboard light. Here’s a radical idea: DEDICATE A KEY TO TURNING ON THE LIGHTS!! Put it on the EDGE of the keyboard FRAME so you can find it even MORE easily than now. For example, on the new A600 wireless keyboard, there is a left-click button on the very very left edge of the keyboard frame itself. Why? Because it’s easy to find, easy to use, and NOT A REAL KEYBOARD CITIZEN, just like the FN key. Why, you could even keep the darn FN key on the left of the CTRL, but shift it over so it hangs off to the South-West of the Shift key, and the CTRL returns to it’s rightful muscle-memory position of just below the Shift key.
Since the designers are saying nothing here, and I personally can’t see any innovation (as in improvement over existing Ultranav offerings), I am starting to suspect that this keyboard project was just to save face and jobs – “Look boss, we’ll use all of these existing injection molds and crates of unused key caps.”
So, big victory on the budget front, big shame on the innovation front. The one single feature that would have made this otherwise mundane keyboard a contender is wireless. And, if you do something – ANYTHING – about the FN CTRL mistake then this keyboard would win.
The A600 keyboard, unfortunately, also suffers from the FN CTRL dyslexia. I stated above that I was going to buy it. I was all excited until I took another close up view to admire at least one Lenovo division’s innovation. What did I see? YAARGH! FN CTRL.
Seriously, What Is Lenovo THINKING??? IBM gave you good genes, but it had some bad mutations. Remove FN CTRL! Add wireless!
What is stopping you? Please educate us!
September 14th, 2009 11:36 pm
Received my keyboard today. I got to say that I love this keyboard! It feels great! Thanks lenovo!
September 15th, 2009 1:25 pm
[...] Am using one of the new external ThinkPad keyboards: http://lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/?p=2364 [...]
September 15th, 2009 4:58 pm
by far the best keyboard, the deal breaker is theres no usb hub!
September 15th, 2009 5:09 pm
@Joseph:
You’ve got some good points, as how come Lenovo can’t implement wireless and issue of the Fn key. It does not belong to the keyboard at all, even less than the Win and Menu keys. What do you think about the middle button for Fn?
On 14″ 4:3 we don’t have any room on the sides of the keyboard, and we don’t want that. I would be changing to 13″ wide if only they could fit some power into it. Really, I don’t want my laptop to be bigger than the keyboard this post is about! Make a screen the same size, why stick to ordinary aspect ratios?
Back to what you wrote, I have a hard to see how you missed out on innovation here. They analyzed keyboard usage, and supersized Esc and Del. I just cant see how Ctrl was allowed to be that small.
And the touchpad of the T400s is not innovation, being wide, flush, textured and multitouch?
I don’t fail to see innovation going on here. I see a company refining the computer, and not caring about the problems that others have solved… the latter is downright stupid.
September 15th, 2009 10:16 pm
@O8h7w
The center button for *me* would be fine to sacrifice to become FN. However, I suspect there are people out there with software that uses the 3rd button. I pulled an old X31 out and looked over the keyboard, and here are some possibilities that solve ALL problems:
1) just flip FN CTRL to be CTRL FN. Shorten the spacebar by 5mm to make the CTRL key larger. SOLVED. Did I mention that this option SOLVES the problem? Simple – SOLVED.
– Pros: Everyone else in the world uses CTRL in the lower left corner
– Cons: Lenovo hasn’t already done it
2) put the FN key below the cursor keys, say below the down arrow. It would be a squat rectangle just like one of the cursor keys. Heck, it could even be 3 keys wide but still narrow to make it “even” with the left/down/right arrow keys and easy to hit in the dark – almost like a 4th button, but in key form.
– Pros: it keeps a nasty key out of muscle-memory’s way, but is also easy to find
– Cons: might be hard to make look good
Now, I’m not saying there aren’t innovations in OTHER products. I’m being narrow in my critique ; I’m referring only to the specific USB keyboard shown at the top of the page. I’m sure there ARE innovations happening all around in Lenovo, but it seems to me that this keyboard is desperate for a distinguishing feature other than price.
Granted, price is a fair selling point – but if this whole keyboard exercise is being justified on affordability, then it IGNORES the cries of potential customers AND reason. Biggest mistakes: no wireless, FN CTRL. These are SERIOUS defects.
Separately, I’ve also always been annoyed with those Web nav keys. I know I am not alone. Lenovo went as far as to offer a way to disable them, so those keys ARE bad news and Lenovo recognizes them as such. Those two keys, like the FN key, occupy real estate they are unworthy to hold. It is insulting that the Web nav keys can be disabled but not remapped. Lenovo is willing to KILL two keys, so carefully placed, in prime locations. In other words, they are STUCK with the design, as in without-innovation.
To summarize, the fix is:
– Add wireless
– Make it CTRL FN
Honestly, I don’t think it matters that Thinkpad users (myself included) have become somewhat accustomed to the fingro-batics necessary to press the FN key. Having this custom setup is confusing for anyone new, and annoying for many current users. New people will have to learn it as much as old people would have to unlearn it. Guess which is less effort in the long run? Right – make it CTRL FN so the problem GOES AWAY.
September 16th, 2009 12:06 am
Is there any keyboard that’s similar to this but wider?
I need a keyboard with an inbuilt pointing device (eg. trackpoint in this case) as I alternate between typing and mousing a lot for my daily work (UI programming), and this keyboard seems suitable.
However, I use keyboards on my lap for ergonomic reasons – anywhere else and I start to get pains on my shoulders / arms / wrists – and this keyboard is actually too narrow and would fall through my lap if I keep my legs relaxed in their natural position.
So does anyone know of any similar keyboard that’s wider?
Thanks, cheers.
September 16th, 2009 12:27 pm
QUESTION – disabling back/forward keys – how?
I received my keyboards today. I installed the drivers, and the keyboard and trackpoint are working fine. However, I saw in a comment above that the back/forward buttons above the arrow keys can be disabled. However, I can’t find this option anywhere. Can anyone point me to it? I don’t have a Lenovo laptop, but I wouldn’t assume I’d need that to disable these keys. I certainly hope not!
Thanks,
John
September 16th, 2009 5:49 pm
The problem with those back and forth keys is that they only send Alt-arrow to the software, they’re not really their own keys. That means they can’t be remapped. Idiotic.
On the Fn key topic, I think there is way to much keys in the bottom row. I wouldnt stand a smaller spacebar neither smaller Ctrl and Alt keys, and I’m on T43. Before the Win and Menu keys.
One option would be to place Win and menu keys instead of the back and forth keys. But I happen to use them a lot for navigation…
It’s a good idea to get rid of the Fn key. And I think it should be a button instead, it does not really belong to the keyboard.
I can see the middle button be double functional. When clicking it, one middle button click, when holding it and using TrackPoint scroll, while holding it and pressing other keys/buttons Fn.
And why don’t do this:
Fn (middle) and left click -> Win key
Fn and right click -> Menu key
It’s actually easy to press with one thumb, and I couldn’t think of a more logical thing than the right-click button bringing up the right-click menu!
Well, suddenly we lost all of the annoying keys in the bottom row one way or another. You see there is a lot of solutions, especially since we only need to get rid of one key to make a difference. And I think it’s rather obvious that Fn should be a button. Maybe near the other buttons, somewhere right of the Esc key?
By the way, did I mention the Caps lock key? And my Num lock issue? I switched those with remapping software and that was a great improvement! Still, Caps lock is a key with very little use on a very good position… what about enter being to far away sometimes?
And whilst remaking everything, if only I had software to handle it, I could make good use of double the amount of keys. In some applications, for example Inventor, I can map almost any key to almost any command. My whole keyboard would be used if I were able to memorize it, now I’m using acronyms and such, to much keystrokes but I have to know them, right?
All this design decisions are so damn complicated I think David Hill and team spends a lot of time tearing their heads apart…
September 17th, 2009 9:12 am
I really don’t think a radical redesign of the keyboard is possible OR desirable. The buttons, even the 3rd, already have “standard” functions associated with them. Key placement is also standard. This is really where Lenovo can make the MOST impact with the LEAST effort:
*** flip it to CTRL FN ***
That isn’t the selfish dream of any one particular person, it means making the keyboard STANDARD. That’s right, STANDARD. I have other notions about the keyboard that annoy me, too, but the ONE thing that Lenovo can do that 100% of users will understand (other than people they’ve already tricked into using it).
Again, the continued frustration that FN CTRL imposes will disappear quickly once you start producing keyboard with CTRL FN. New recruits will be comfortable, old guard will relearn, and then all frustration disappears.
Going CTRL FN is NOT A CUSTOMER RETENTION ISSUE!!!! no, no and NO. You will get grumbles for sure, but you get them now anyway! Make 75% of the keyboard frustration DISAPPEAR! Change it to CTRL FN.
The other 25% is the “Browser Navigation” keys. As I noted above, they can be disabled, but why!? Lenovo allows for two PRIME LOCATION keys to be disabled, but not remapped?? This is why I don’t think the keyboard is really up for redesign. If Lenovo can’t fix it’s lame mistake of the Browser Nav keys, it certainly can’t add more buttons, or do weird combo presses. The one and only thing it can do, without actually changing much yet having a significant improvement, is change it to CTRL FN.
There is NO hair-tearing (I think you meant hand wringing) in this. It’s barely a design issue, rather it’s a logical, practical change to a STANDARD.
@ John West – check out this page http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/supp.....57743.html, though I don’t know whether it works for external keyboards. Perhaps there is IBM/Lenovo software you could install?
September 17th, 2009 3:50 pm
Ordered from Lenovo UK & recieved from Hong Kong 10 days later. This is a very highly accurate engineered keyboard and is typically ‘Thinkpad’ in quality and use. I find it is firmer when used flat, like my ThinkPads rather that with the extended legs. Now if this was only wireless!! David, are you listening – with Lenovo’s expertise surely this is easily achievable??
Everything works fine except awakening from sleep/hibernation using the Fn key. I will persevere with Lenovo update site and seen how it goes.
September 17th, 2009 5:49 pm
I just ordered mine from the Lenovo web site and they just shipped it today. Can’t wait to get my hands on it, literally.
September 17th, 2009 9:38 pm
I’m loving the new keyboard, especially the bigger escape and delete keys. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve hit F1 instead of ESC with the old one!
Only problem I’ve seen is that the driver consumes 6+ GB of virtual memory on my Windows Server 2008 64-bit machine, according to Process Explorer.
Specifically:
C:\Program Files\Lenovo\ThinkPad USB Keyboard with TrackPoint\Skd8855.exe
Cycles: 7,775,290,286,902 (15-20 million / second!)
Private Bytes: 6,750,644 KB
Virtual Size: 6,870,776 KB
Working Set: 3,917,108 KB
Hopefully some optimizations can be made to this driver. The other driver (ltpPoint.exe) is well behaved.
September 18th, 2009 9:47 am
[...] Keyboard with TrackPoint??????????????????????? ?Design Matters Blog Archive The Keyboard You Helped Design [...]
September 18th, 2009 1:48 pm
Please make a wireless version. This is the perfect keyboard for couch based control of my media center but i can’t have that wire stringing across my living room. I am a lenovo laptop guy and I love my trackpoint but i need it wireless for the couch:-)
September 18th, 2009 7:04 pm
@Mark: I hope that’s more of a mistake than a need for optimizing, especially since I have 1GB of RAM… ridiculous!
@Joseph:
In swedish language we are tearing our hair instead of wringing our hands, and I didn’t find the english words for it…
And while speaking about language, you’re doing quite a lot of SHOUTING in these comments. Are you so upset about this that you’ve find use for the Caps Lock key?
Other than that I don’t want to change what is working. And about the 3:rd button, the one with the blue stripe, primarily used for scrolling with the TrackPoint… I don’t want to remove any functionality from it, just add. I think it’s doable. For example the Win key works both at it’s own and as a modifier, the problem would be to interact with mouse and keyboard at the same time. May need a heavy driver. But Fn could have it’s own button, amongst the others, would solve a lot easily. Point is, it does not fit in the bottom row, not really in the keyboard at all.
And as to those navigation keys, I agree they did a big mistake not letting them become their own keys, so that they could be remapped.
Anyway, one good thing would be if they came up with ThinkVantage keyboard remapper. There is a lot to be improved upon the software that is available.
I hope I don’t seem harsh or annoying to you, I find this an interesting conversation. (otherwise I would’ve stopped longa ago)
September 19th, 2009 11:48 am
I find it great that Lenovo is listening to their customers. They are now offering a product that is exactly what (I) the consumers want. Keep up the good work.
September 20th, 2009 1:32 am
You know, this is boring without the designers actually paying any attention. Which in fact is why I’m shouting. No one seems who matters seems to be able to do anything about the to most grevious birth defects of the keyboard:
1) Not wireless
2) FN CTRL
3) Web nav keys
Unless something truly new gets said, I’ll leave it with this:
- Any answer other than CTRL FN is bad news. Why? Because everything else on the keyboard is pretty normal. Don’t mess with a standard layout, don’t change the meaning of buttons.
- Wireless needs to be added. Perhaps all of this energy went to the A600’s keyboard. Too bad if so.
- The Web nav keys are actually DANGEROUS. How many people have lost Web form entries to those rotten things? Guess what, Lenovo allows you to disable them. Here’s a better answer: remove them. Or, allow them to be remapped.
FN CTRL and the Web Nav keys are EASY fixes. Fix them. Wireless is obviously more complex, but your A600 already does it. Add that tech to this keyboard and you’re done. Why is that so hard!?
And I’ve been “shouting” because, again, NO ONE that matters is listening. Or, they lay mute on the sidelines which, I think, is cowardly. I’d like to hear the real reasons behind Lenovo’s not addressing these obvious deficits.
September 20th, 2009 10:21 am
But I want a trackpad so badly
September 20th, 2009 4:17 pm
Sorry I didn’t remember this earlier:
http://lenovoblogs.com/yamato/.....anguage=en
At least there is some thinking going on around the Fn Ctrl issue, and of course a switch would make fans of eihter of the standard positons happy. But not much help for us who think that Fn should not be a key, and that the bottom row is too crowded.
September 20th, 2009 10:28 pm
This is where you need to be reasonable. FN is a modifier of keys, like Shift, Ctrl, Alt, etc., and so it *needs* to be a key itself.
If you don’t like that answer, then consider that having a dedicated FN key is simple and easy to understand. You don’t need a manual. Anything else becomes another proprietary problem: odd button/key combos, dual-purpose modifier keys, forget it! What manufacturer wants to deal with more support calls?
CTRL FN
What are the manufacturing costs in that? Tiny. Also, it means 0% new support calls. Furthermore, no wasted effort in a BIOS switch, which really is a crazy idea. Just cut out the rot and be done with it. Answer: CTRL FN.
The only other logical option would be to not have an FN key at all and instead have a whole slew of new tic-tac keys for those specialized FN features (brightness, volume, etc.) Now, why is this [only] other option not actually good? Two reasons, and the first reveals fundamentally why FN should be REMOVED from the corner:
1) Having more physical keys that do not get frequent use is a waste of space. Right – so, if they’re not that frequently used, WHY IS FN IN THE CORNER?! Why disrupt a standard layout (CTRL FN) for something with infrequent, non-muscle-memory use?
Again, it is a bad excuse for FN that it makes turning on the light easy. If that is SO important, then dedicate a single key to turning on the light. In fact, that’s a good idea! I have fumbled in the dark to find both the upper right and bottom left to turn on the light. If I had to just fumble in one spot it would be much easier.
2) Extra rows of tiny keys will probably be ugly
Now, I hate to mention it, but there is one way to keep the FN in the corner. Make it useful. How? Make it into a modifier that people would use a lot. What do they do a lot? Navigate! Lenovo caught a whiff of this, but responded with the absolutely un-good Web nav keys.
If FN modified the cursor arrows to do PgUp/Dn/Home/End, then I can say with great ease that FN has justification to be in the corner. How can I be shouting for so long and then say FN is OK in the corner? Very simple: give FN some actual all-the-time usefulness, and then it belongs. Apple, Sony and many other manufacturers have for years been using the FN keys to modify the cursor keys. This is a very intuitive application, and I’m sorry IBM didn’t adopt it (choosing instead to be clever with the Web nav keys – NOT), and that Lenovo isn’t thinking harder about how to cut dead wood from the keyboard and copy some obviously successful approaches.
September 20th, 2009 10:31 pm
And yes, I’ve thought about the “safety” of having to do a combo keypress to turn on the light. Put the light “button” on the upper lid, and have it respond only when the lid is open.
September 21st, 2009 1:09 pm
A few good ones, Joseph. But I still don’t agree.
First off, changing the position of Ctrl and Fn still doesn’t solve the problem that Ctrl and Alt are way too small. We need to get some keys out of the bottom row. Agree with me that the Fn should go first, since it is not standard on standard keyboards – that would be non-laptop ones. And of course this applies even more to this external keyboard…
Second, about making it useful. I searched my mind as to why I use those navigation keys. Answer is, I want to navigate single-handed. That is why I don’t often use Alt-arrow for back and forth. But those in-text navigation commands could be two-handed. I myself don’t use PgUp and PgDn, I’ve actually remapped those to Win and Menu. Remember, I don’t have those bloody keys.
Instead I use Ctrl with up and down arrow, which is more useful. Jumps from paragraph to paragraph. When not writing I mostly scroll with the TrackPoint, otherwise with the arrow keys plain. Home and End I use from time to time, often annoyed by that they’re a little out of reach.
And I just fail to see what is wrong with a BIOS switch, except that we don’t get rid of the key.
Well there is more to cut from the keyboard. Some keys I don’t or hardly ever use:
Caps Lock
PgUp / PgDn
Insert
Pause / Break
Scroll lock
SysRq (what is that?)
Half of the F# keys
Of all the number key row, + and backspace are the only primary functions I use.
And the sound buttons, I don’t use noise for sound and I can’t remap them to the software I use, or even windows sound.
When doing a list like this it becomes obvious that we all probably use the keys differently. And the solution is obvious too – really good remapping software.
On the other hand, there seems to be some keys that very few use to an extent that matters. Just have a look at this:
Oops, couldn’t find it. You probably know Hill and team made a heat map of the keyboard:
http://lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/?p=1565
And I’m pretty sure I’ve seen the whole thing, but I can’t find it. Well, I remember Caps Lock was not really used at all.
September 21st, 2009 6:11 pm
Look, I think it’s important to understand that the design must balance standards, Thinkpad features, partner agreements (e.g.: Windows key) and customer desires together. As such, it is not possible to remove/move the Windows or Alt keys. Also the CTRL key has a long tradition of being right where it is. OK, if you’re an old school Sun user, or a 1950’s typist that fell into a time portal, you might think the Caps Lock is in the wrong place, but other than that, CTRL belongs in the corner.
Without FN, none of those laptop-specific or media-oriented functions would be available without adding another row of keys. FN as a modifier is a necessity. And, in terms of form factor, only a true key makes sense.
Those keys you mention as not being useful I can’t say. Sure, for you they’re not, but for others they may be. For example, I use all of the function keys for Photoshop shortcuts. I remap Insert/Pause for other stuff, so their presence is useful.
The only oddity, and the simplest controversy, is the FN key. Other keys are really not worth venting about unless the rant comes with a COMPREHENSIVE solution that recognizes the gains/losses of changing them. Just saying they’re not useful to one’s self is not a justification for change.
If one wants a truly, fully remappable keyboard then check out Kinesis. Now, I have loved IBM keyboards since the XT. The only reason my dander is up is because I think the dynasty of the keyboard can continue, but it needs a facelift. The keyboard still has it’s touch going for it, and the trackpoint for those fans, but it is stuck in the past and needs to adapt.
The other way the FN could stay in the corner is if it were WAY thinner. Say, half its width. This would allow only a minor adjustment of the left pinky as it travels to hit CTRL.
Now, why do I say BIOS is a bad idea? Because this doesn’t address the fundamental problem of FN CTRL being bassackwards. Furthermore, it adds more moving parts where only a simple swap to CTRL FN is warranted. Now, I think it WOULD be acceptable to have a BIOS option if it were reversed: physical keys become CTRL FN, and if you don’t like it then switch it in BIOS to “legacy” FN CTRL. That’s right – fix the problem with CTRL FN, and make a way for a population *that will diminish* to use the old method. Much better, and eventually it all just goes away.
September 21st, 2009 7:09 pm
In other words, there are *few* things that are seen universally as deficiencies of the keyboard. They are, in order of impact to end user:
1) Web nav keys dangerous
2) No wireless option
3) FN in the wrong place
Of course there are other problems that other groups of people perceive, but the above three have top billing. #1 and #3 are low-hanging fruit in terms of fix-ability.
September 22nd, 2009 1:21 pm
Please Joseph, don’t blame me for talking about my own problems. I can’t say I’ve heard many complaints about the back and forth keys…
And don’t say you use keys when you remap them. That way I would use Caps Lock, since I remapped it to Num Lock. You can remap anything on the keyboard, except Fn. That’s because it’s hardware controlled, it doesn’t send key codes. It is not a key!
By the way, I don’t have a problem with Ctrl not being in the corner. I’m used to that, and I think I could get used to the other configuration to. My problem is that both Ctrl and Alt has shrunk. There is too many keys in the bottom row, now say what to get rid of?
And moving parts… why would that be? Are you aware that the key caps on your keyboard is just as replaceable as the TrackPoint cap?
And I have another reason for Ctrl Fn to be the default order if there was a BIOS switch. That’s right, I’m on your side here. Don’t you agree that old ThinkPad users is probably more OK with making BIOS changes than new users?
Imagine the support handling a bunch of newbies who got lost in BIOS… okay, probably not gonna happen, but try the opposite. I don’t think you’ll find many old ThinkPad users wanting Fn Ctrl that would screw up such a task.
And wireless is just out of discussion, they have to implement that soon. Good thing we agree on something!
September 22nd, 2009 7:49 pm
No wireless is good for the environment
As I’ve switched off the trackpad in Bios on my TP I’m quite happy with TrackPoint only.
As soon as it becomes available in the stores I will get one. Looking forward to see how the T410 and T410s plays out.
The ThinkPads are superb plug’n play Linuxmachines by the way.
September 22nd, 2009 10:25 pm
O8h7w, yes and no on “blame” – I’m pointing to the issue that people are airing overly personal problems with the keyboard – these issues will NEVER be addressed. Do you see how much trouble Lenovo is having with just getting wireless? Getting a properly sized CTRL key (I agree with you on that, too)?
OK, so it looks like Lenovo is actually considering a BIOS option (or is at least investing some time gather user opinion on the keyboard). I think we agree on two points, and that is definitely something considering most expressions of frustration are overly complex.
So, here’s what I think would make everyone at least a little happy:
1) CTRL FN, but BIOS option to go legacy with FN CTRL. This is the opposite of what Lenovo is currently suggesting, but is definitely BETTER for to-be users and frustrated users. Between those two groups is pretty much everyone. Someone has to sacrifice, and Lenovo has been choosing the WRONG group thus far. FN CTRL is a cult that needs to be disbanded.
2) Wireless.
@ Jack – what are you talking about? If you think a shift to wireless is a significant net negative then you should stop using computers altogether. Is every bulb in your life flourescent? LED? Do you use camel dung to illuminate your desk? Wireless = radiation, wired = plastic waste. I’m open to you providing a comprehensive study that shows a *significant* benefit of going wired.
September 23rd, 2009 1:27 am
@Joseph While Ctrl-Fn is more common, I wouldn’t call it standard. Gateways and Apples have it, along with another one or two. There are also those who claim that Ctrl-Win-Alt is the proper sequence of keys, so Fn has to go somewhere else. That said, I agree with you completely, and the outside edge of the keyboard is the primary spot that Ctrl needs.
@O8h7w The whole point of the Win/Menu keys in my mind is to be able to access the functionality without having to move from the keyboard. I have countless Win- shortcuts that I use frequently, so an extra button press there just isn’t acceptable. And having to push two buttons to get the effect of a right-click is just silly, especially when one of them is a right-click!
September 23rd, 2009 2:23 pm
@ 196 – OK yes, I too would say that CTRL WIN ALT is the standard for PC keyboards.
Now, most people being right-handed, the simplest way to punch up a custom FN keypress would be to have the left hand do the easy part (same-spot keypress) and the right hand do the hunting. As such, FN makes the most sense down in the CTRL WIN ALT mix. I don’t think WIN and ALT can be separated, ALT and SPACE can’t be separated, which leaves only CTRL FN WIN.
Try out your pinky now, and you’ll find it has more lateral play than your inner fingers. It can stretch, whereas the ring and middle fingers are more straight-ahead. This means that muscle memory is happy to recall WIN ALT SPACE, with Ring Middle Thumb/Index. This means that the pinky can travel easily from CTRL to FN and not mess up the stiffer Ring finger movement to travel far South-West to reach the WIN key.
Now, Apple’s guidelines don’t use the CTRL key the way Windows or UNIX does. They have a totally proprietary APPLE key, and use OPTION instead of ALT. Since you use the APPLE key for most editing functions, having the FN key in the corner has little impact. Since Apple is a small cult, there’s not much to do here.
As for Gateway, well, I guess they’re copycats. Maybe I should go post on their pages. Fortunately, they don’t have much market share.
September 23rd, 2009 6:07 pm
Got my keyboard about a week ago and I have been loving it! Though I have one problem.
I got the keyboard and just like all of my Thinkpads I opened it excitedly. And just like all of my Thinkpads the first thing I looked for was the concave trackpoint head. I looked frantically, everywhere in the box but the alternate nubs were nowhere to be found!
Great, now I have to either order a new set of nubs or try to grift one off of my boss who doesn’t use the trackpoint on his X301. Why didn’t this keyboard come with the alternate trackpoint heads like the Thinkpads do?
September 23rd, 2009 7:50 pm
@ O8h7w #193 – I don’t mean “moving parts” literally. In the technical world, “moving parts” refers to the level of complexity. More moving parts in this context, of a BIOS modification, means more software and hardware development, more testing cycles, more support calls. This is bad. If Lenovo was smart, flipping to CTRL FN is a simple reflash of their PROM at the factory. Day laborer cheap.
To your “not a key” assertion: FN is in the form factor of a key, which is correct considering it is a keypress modifier just as CTRL, WIN and ALT are. It can legitimately be called a key. Its lack of a keypress signal does not disqualify it from being *in essence* a key.
So, if your argument for its removal rests largely on it not being a key, then you need to rethink your perception of what a “key” is. The difference between a key and a button, on a keyboard anyway, is that when there is a compound statement, if a button doesn’t do it ALL by itself, then a *key* always **starts** it.
For example, it’s CTRL-RIGHT-CLICK, *not* RIGHT-CLICK-CTRL. It’s ALT-LEFT-CLICK-DRAG. A “key” always comes first when mixing control types. We all know what a “key” looks like, and where we might reasonably find one. Also, modifier keys come before other keys. SHIFT, CTRL, FN, etc. Now given all that, FN *must* be a key to keep with the convention of KEY-KEY-… or KEY-BUTTON-… patterns. Understand?
Furthermore, button presses are not typically interpreted in the aggregate. You don’t LEFT-CLICK then RIGHT-CLICK (while still holding the LEFT-CLICK) to get something done. To expect multiple button presses to do something, and worse to expect *concurrent* button presses, you’re breaking all expectations of how keyboard/mouse controls work.
September 23rd, 2009 11:27 pm
I need to correct my last statement. Multiple disconnected button presses are actually *worse* than concurrent button presses because sequencing can’t (shouldn’t) be handled in the keyboard (no arguments about a programmable keyboard – this is not a programmable keyboard in any way). The release of a key/button is a sequencing concern for the listening *software* to handle. Hence, in the abstract, sequenced button presses are far worse to impose behavior on than on concurrent button presses. Now, that said, it’s actually moot, because imposing meaning on concurrent button presses is not an expected capacity under any circumstances. For example, no one at all would intuit a “LEFT-RIGHT”-CLICK to have a unique meaning. Why not have Lenovo start on such an adventure? Because it will create a TON of support calls. This is why any suggestion of overloading the meaning of any mouse button is a very bad idea.
Simply put: A button is NEVER an adjective (modifier). A button is ALWAYS a noun that can be preceeded by one or more adjectives, such as SHIFT, CTRL, FN, ALT, etc.
@ O8h7w One musn’t hunt for efficiencies by conflating or distorting the meaning of well established controls. FN is very much its own thing, and some manufacturers actually make it useful for day-to-day tasks. Which reminds me…
Your example from #190, quoted below, exemplifies what I mean be people trying to solve their own problems before considering the broader picture:
“Instead I use Ctrl with up and down arrow, which is more useful. Jumps from paragraph to paragraph.”
Guess what, that is a *non-standard behavior* of whatever application you’re using, and as such not a justification that should be aired. In *some* of my apps, CTRL-UP scrolls the window one line but keeps my cursor in the same place. In others, it does nothing. I’m not saying to keep one’s gripes to one’s self, but the gripes need to be something shared and *actionable* by Lenovo. Take a step back and don’t think about the tactical way you could make the keyboard work for YOU, think about the everyman, and the physical reality of using the keyboard.
September 24th, 2009 5:22 pm
@Joseph
I’m grateful, you’re making me think.
You’ve been very clear about how you like to classifie modifiers, keys and buttons. Mostly, I agree. But I myself think of keys like something software, and buttons like something hardware. I have used Fn to wake up from sleep for quite a while, or three years, since I’m using Fn+F4 to initate sleep. But I just can’t get used to having the computer react on a key when it is not running… it just feels wrong.
Anyway, I sort of liked you’re translation to the linguistic vocabulary. But guess what – I’m more of a technician. To the point that I want text I read to say what it means. Nothing bad about not writing what you mean, except that I have a hard to understand it. And be aware that this problem is mine, not yours.
You convinced me about some bad ideas I had. But I couldn’t figure that out myself, any idea needs to be shared to get criticized. But you agree with me that there is too much keys in the bottom row, Ctrl Alt and even spacebar are too small in the current layout. Not to talk about Alt Gr, and right Ctrl. So what to get rid of? I’m just asking…
I’m thinking right now, that my first idea wasn’t a bad one. That is to position Fn to the right of Esc. What do you think?
Then, Ctrl+Up and Ctrl+Dn for jumping a paragraph being non-standard, excuse me – what are you using? It does so throughout my system. Not that I can think of anymore than Word, Outlook and the Internet Explorer boxes where I actually write enough to ever use it. But I’d say Microsoft Office is as close to a standard you can get in software, except PDF, DWG and Photoshop.
And my last comment tonight, I would like to tell you that I’m no design professional. I’m not educated in human-machine interaction. And I do not know other users habits, I only know myself. I think it’s in the genes of most living creatures to care about themself first. But designing commercial things needs a broader picture, you’re right. We need to study a lot of people if we’re going to make it work for a lot of people.
September 25th, 2009 4:19 pm
An update after a few weeks use on this keyboard.
It has a noticeable amount of flex, and over time this becomes fairly irritating. I’d go as far as say it ruins the product. I’m not sure why this there – if the bottom of the keyboard is supported the flex goes away. Design flaw I think.
I’ve already spent my £50, but it’d be nice if you did correct this for future iterations of the product. I’m sticking with this since there’s no other real alternatives without a numeric pad (other than the overdone SideWinder keyboard for similar price), but still, I’m surprised how this got past QC..
September 25th, 2009 4:45 pm
@O8h7w – Notice how all of those programs are written by Microsoft? They’re consistent, but that doesn’t make them a standard. Does it work in Eclipse? Acrobat? Thunderbird? Firefox? OpenOffice? I’m in Linux right now, so can’t test half of those. Definitely doesn’t work in my text editors.
September 25th, 2009 5:13 pm
OK, I think I’ve lost all hope for Lenovo on this matter. I had said earlier that I was going to go with an A600 keyboard because it, at least, was wireless with an integrated mouse (trackpad). I was all excited until I looked at the keyboard and found it, too, was FN CTRL. Now, yesterday, I decided, heck, whatever, it’s for an HTPC, and wireless/integrated mouse is most important.
Well, I just had another look at it before buying. Oops. Now it becomes very apparent that Lenovo has a complete poverty of understanding (at least for keyboards). Have a look at this:
http://www.padtap.com/design/A.....yboard.jpg
Other than my big red gripe, what do you see? I see Lenovo UNABLE to understand that FN in the corner is a MISTAKE that they are perpetuating. If the FN key actually did something, ANYTHING, then I wouldn’t have minded. But – it modifies FOUR keys!! And, only to procude VERY uncommon keys. WHY would they do this? Only two explanations:
1) The “design” team (for that keyboard) was made of half-wits who could do nothing more than *cut* from an existing layout
2) The “design” team was completely incompetent
There are a million shades down from the above, such as “but I was told FN is required in the corner because that’s our distinguishing mark.” Or, “I’m a designer who can’t see past my own personal space, and I have small hands.”
There is NO argument for FN to be in such an important spot when it effectively does NOTHING. Well, the only argument is, “well that’s what we’ve always done.” Obviously, Lenovo really really thinks that FN somehow defines their look. The A600 keyboard is either astonighingly lazy, or crippled because “design-guidelines” are forcing a layout (FN) based on a legacy without a vision.
September 25th, 2009 5:40 pm
Ouch what a keyboard. Hasn’t even got numbers – downright useless. I agree on this implementation of Fn being ridiculous. But I’m sticking with my trusty T43. Only XGA is way too small these days…
By the way, on my computer I use Fn for a few things. Sleep, turning on and off WLAN radio, adjusting the brightness of the screen and the ThinkLight. All of which are functions that I feel belong to the buttons…
And I know those programs are made by Microsoft. Ever heard about compatibility? When you interact with a lot of people it’s way easier if you’re working in the same environment. Even more so when everyone calls you for support. And Microsoft is the most used, around here anyway. Sure Openoffice has good compatibility but it’s different – and in some ways, it’s simply not as good as Office.
Originally on-topic, @Gaurav Sharma:
I’m interested to see more about the flex in the keyboard. It goes away when putting something under it? Or does it work just lying flat on a flat surface? Have you checked if all rubber pads on the bottom are okay? What about adding some?
September 25th, 2009 5:43 pm
^ EDIT ^
I saw now I didn’t make clear that my first paragraph is about the A600 keyboard, not the on-topic one.
September 25th, 2009 8:46 pm
The reason I brought up the A600 is because it *is* on topic. I think it lays bare how lacking in innovation Lenovo is (for keyboards). If you hold the A600 and the “on topic” keyboards up to the light, you can see they share the bones of stiff, in-the-box thinking.
Now these bones are not necessarily of the designers. At a minimum they are the silhouette of those paying the designer’s bills, of the business model that is innovating on cost rather than function. I strongly suspect that the “on topic” keyboard at the top of this page was distorted by regulation rather than design capacity. But, without hearing anything from designers, it’s hard not to be suspicious.
September 25th, 2009 8:51 pm
In any case, I think the lack of wireless is the most significant problem. Adding wireless would be a welcome improvement with little controversy. Certainly the most expensive, but definitely the most wanted.
September 26th, 2009 11:58 am
> Well, the only argument is, “well that’s what we’ve always done.”
That argument allone is sufficient enough.
Think about what would happen if they (re)moved that key – ALL long time ThinkPad users would be like: “WHAT THE **** is this?! I’ve been using your laptops for 20 years and you changed the layout for NO reason!”
According to the survey on this blog the percentage of people that like FN-CTRL and CTRL-FN is almost exactly 50-50. This means that whatever they do, half of users are not going to like it. Just remember what happened when they removed those red lines (which serve no functional purpose at all) from trackpoint buttons…
September 26th, 2009 4:30 pm
A switch, and then both fans of Ctrl – Fn and Fn – Ctrl will be happy. But not me, since Ctrl and Alt still would be way too small…
Wireless is a no-brainer. I think it will come soon.
On topic in blog comments are everything that is directly related to the blog post, such as opinions and reactions upon it. But these comments feel more like a design forum. Maybe there should be something like that in the Lenovo forum, preferrably with some of the staff active.
Here is a good list about Fn and Ctrl (I love lists):
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T4.....305#M12846
September 26th, 2009 4:52 pm
@ D – yes, that’s why I listed it as an argument, as the *only* argument.
However, it’s not as simple/smug as you state, because Lenovo IS (supposedly) pondering a BIOS switch. This means there is enough pressure at least within the internal 50/50, and I strongly suspect in addition to potential customers.
In any case it’s not a strong argument, because Lenovo is keeping the WTF’s 50% artifically high. FN CTRL is either neutral or negative for new users. We *might* be able to call it an acquired taste for the WTFers. If changed to CTRL FN, then WTF -> Wtf -> wtf -> w -> … The problem evaporates.
And, to ease the WTFers’ pain from moving towards a better layout, Lenovo can still do the BIOS switch! Just make the keys CTRL FN and allow the BIOS switch back to the legacy model.
September 27th, 2009 4:52 pm
Since we all seem to agree by now I think we can close this discussion. Maybe we should get a bunch of emails to Lenovo telling them to do the BIOS switch?
September 27th, 2009 6:39 pm
We all agree? Are you kidding? Actually, we don’t agree at all. While I don’t mind a BIOS switch being implemented so that YOU can switch YOUR keys, I’d like my Fn key to stay right where it’s been all along.
And I doubt that there’s any need to flood Lenovo with e-mails about either option since this is, after all, their blog. Just because they don’t choose to respond publicly doesn’t mean they aren’t reading.
September 27th, 2009 10:30 pm
jane – well said.
September 27th, 2009 10:40 pm
@ Jane – yes, you are one of those people who has become accustomed to the FN CTRL. I am also a Thinkpad user, but have never become comfortable with it. This is primarily because I use *other* computers as well, and find with each switch there is a frustrating warm-up period.
Personally, I see the FN CTRL group as a “unique” crowd that, by IBM/heir-Lenovo’s physical coercion, has become loyal to the layout. So, here is why I think, statistically, it is important for Lenovo to make the switch: there are at least 4 sides weighing in…
1) Happy FN CTRL users (50% thinkpad users, finite #)
2) Unhappy FN CTRL users (other 50% thinkpad users, finite #)
3) Happy CTRL xxx users (MOST other non-thinkpad users, which also represent lost buyers, infinite #)
4) Time, moving forward
Now, where is the money? Is it in #1, #2, or #3. Right, #3 increasing as #4 trucks on. So, don’t get all hot with “YOU can switch YOUR keys,” because guess what, LENOVO IS CONSIDERING A BIOS SWITCH. In other words, they recognize that YOU are a happy camper, but that the campground rules are INHIBITING sales, and making the “YOU” that you refer to unhappy. In other words, don’t tell the unhappy/unwilling users/buyers to switch their keys, because Lenovo *isn’t* stubbornly behind YOUR words.
September 27th, 2009 10:55 pm
joseph – jane said she’s fine with a BIOS switch. relax.
regarding the statistics, the poll numbers are inaccurate because wordpress doesn’t limit one vote per visitor. the same visitor can close their browser, re-visit the page, and vote again pro or con. for this poll to be accurate (and therefore usable in arguments both pro and con), results would need to be taken in a controlled environment.
September 27th, 2009 11:39 pm
O8h7w Says: Wireless is a no-brainer. I think it will come soon.
Thats what I thought 5 years ago when I bought a TP travel USB to replace my logitech cordless. Thats when I started to bombard IBM and then Lenovo to any department I could find an email for to build it wireless. In that time wireless keyboards have gone from rf to bluetooth(2 standards already). WTF!! Now the iPod touch can run an amazing trackpad and keyboard with AirMousePro over wi-fi.
WTF again. By the time Lenovo makes this wireless, the keyboard will be obsolete.
September 28th, 2009 12:19 am
@ erik – you’re right: need a controlled poll to the right populations. But, does it matter anymore? Because…
@ snowrider – I think you’re right, too. It won’t happen. Have you seen their latest wireless keyboard, for the A600? No hope. Maybe the FN thing will get resolved, but I have no hope anymore for wireless.
September 28th, 2009 10:43 am
So this guy David Hill posts in a design matters blog that design matters yet has he responded to the well thought discussion here. I am not a power typist so the Fn CTRL issue is not prominent for me. I have learned to use it as is though it does not make sense as Fn is not a leading modifier. CTRL clearly has priority as it is used for all global shortcuts. I am amazed at how few people who have used computers for years are not even aware of using a keyboard CTRL C, CTRL V for even copy paste. Todays designers seem to come from a fashion over function mentality. Most of them probably do not use \key shortcuts and think only old farts would bother. Since all they do is post on blogs, facebook, and twitter away the day no wonder they do not view a computer as a working machine instead of a media social networking toy. Notice the Lenovo S10 and other modern full size laps with no right CTRL key. Absolute concrete slam dunk evidence that designers do not use CTRL Z-X-C-V. That move is accomplished using RIGHT CTRL and LEFT to define command. Logic is so obvious. I began using the TP keyboards for AutoCAD and Solidworks. I find the trackpoint to be the perfect tool for use in 3d modeling when combined with command line. Traditional mousing is completely counter-productive in this kind of workspace environment.
September 28th, 2009 4:52 pm
@ snowrider – you know, it is also possible that David Hill and the other designers are laying out the keyboard (e.g.: loss of RIGHT-CTRL) based on in-situ observations of their clients. I mean, if they’re making reasonable lead-designer money, they are certainly provided with research resources.
The designers *might* individuall have the same anti-typist behavior you’re talking about, but if they are worth ANYTHING (and I suspect they are), then they can at least SEE what ought to be done for a more universal user.
Continuing on the basis that they are actually competent designers, because if not then there is no hope on ANY front, then there are two inhibiting factors to the keyboard’s improved usability:
1) Again, “that’s the way we’ve always done it”
2) FN CTRL is part of their identity (soooo lame if this is true)
If the designer’s are NOT fighting against the above, then it’s all over. Now for (2), a FN CTRL identity is really just symptomatic of loser thinking in the same vein as single-button Apple products. Now Apple has a plausible allowance in that Apple *is* style. So, they can be more about function-follows-form. However, Thinkpads are steeped in stylish *usability*. Lenovo cannot just gussy up their products and expect to be stylish. Lenovo should accentuate what IBM started – practical style – and FIX the IBM design flaws. But, I don’t think they have the vision, gumption, or capacity to do it. Like you said, 5 years on and nothing.
September 29th, 2009 12:23 pm
I still think we agree, on these main points:
- A BIOS switch is the best right now about FN Ctrl issue
- Wireless is just a big question
- Lenovo, or the designers themselves, are acting stupid.
Don’t you agree?
And I think we should mailbomb them. Maybe they read this, but they aren’t doing anything, so it doesn’t matter.
September 29th, 2009 10:21 pm
Well, after getting this far in the discussion, and having thought more than usual about how industrial design gets turned into product, here’s my conclusion:
fuggedaboutit
I can’t tell if the designers are lacking in capacity or tether, or whether *I* am lacking in my intuition on why this keyboard is deformed, or perhaps both. I think all I can do at this point is continue using my *wired* Apple Extended Keyboard. It has all of the main keys in the right places, and I can remap where necessary. It actually has 19 function (F) keys.
September 30th, 2009 3:00 pm
I wasn’t going to write anymore, but I found a funny solution to CTRL FN that apparently works for most situations because CTRL and FN don’t modify the same keys:
GLUE THEM TOGETHER!
So, hitting one means hitting the other. Since the CTRL and FN modifiers don’t act on the same keys, and since FN is not actually sent as a separate signal, you get CTRL-/keypress/ always. For FN, the keys it expects to be pressed with don’t care whether CTRL is sent along with it! For example, SysReq and CTRL-SysReq do the same darn thing. Anyway, this is a serious hack, but it makes both FN and CTRL physically *HUGE* without compromising on functionality. Solved!
September 30th, 2009 3:55 pm
To all of you who love FN CTRL, I say: FAIL.
I have always despised the FN in the corner, but until this past week I didn’t realize just how much upset-ness is out there. Here’s a quote I just found, referring to another one of these “bogus” design blogs. It is one of THOUSANDS of entries about the problem:
http://www.ashbaughonline.com/.....-ctrl-key/
…says…
“Most infuriating of this is how cowardly lenovo are in addressing (or: failing to address) the issue. They blog constantly about keyboards and try to give you the impression your opinion is taken on board. But I have never seen a post from lenovo staff addressing the Fn/Ctrl issue in any substantial manner. It makes their efforts look like a lot of back patting to me.”
Serious FAIL.
September 30th, 2009 10:11 pm
Why does Lenovo have to follow the populist opinions of including Ctrl Fn combination, just because some inferior laptops do it.
Just because some users can’t get use to the Fn Ctrl, doesn’t mean Lenovo have to change it. There are also many people whom like this key combo, because they only use Thinkpad and not other laptops.
Dell Latitude have officially move their LCD into 16:9 aspect ratio, so does Lenovo have to follow too???
October 1st, 2009 2:28 am
@wjli2 – Guess what? Lenovo is considering the BIOS switch. Where does that leave you “elites”, as opposed to we “populists”? Right, with nothing to stand on. Get over it. There aren’t populists and elites here, but there are people who want the keyboard with the best feel to be the best all around. So the CTRL FN reign of terror ends with a BIOS switch. If in the last two sentences you got your FN CTRL religion back, here’s a reminder: Lenovo is considering a BIOS switch. Is that clear? Drop your elite BS and step into a world where YOU and I don’t matter, the GROUP matters.
October 1st, 2009 7:35 am
A BIOS switch isn’t a solution for those of us who use the keyboard with a non-Lenovo laptop. I have one of these keyboards for every computer I own. I wouldn’t use anything else. The ergonomics of not having to move my hands to reach for a mouse is invaluable. But because my computers aren’t Lenovo, I’ll never have a BIOS option.
I firmly believe that Lenovo should market this outside of the niche of Lenovo users. And the only showstopper, in my mind, is the button placement. Fix that with a hardware switch on the keyboard itself, and you make this keyboard accessible to everyone!
John
October 1st, 2009 4:20 pm
@Joseph
I should’ve seen that one coming, you came up with the best idea ever! Put them together! It’s so neat I almost can’t believe it, and even I would be happy!
But there is actually one downside to it. This way we can’t use Fn to write numbers. I’ll be okay with that, since my Caps Lock / Num Lock switch works fine for me. Sure it would be even better if I could hold it down, hit a number and then go back to writing text. And even better the other way round, hold it down to get the normal function when writing numbers. The worst problem right now is actually that I cant reach the dot in Num Lock.
Anyway, there’s still something good about a dedicated button for the ThinkLight. And making Fn somewhat more useful. I got a great idea while working on multiple computers today, what about switching computers… and what about a ThinkVantage technology to use your ThinkPad keyboard and Ultranav with anouther computer?
October 1st, 2009 6:05 pm
@O8h7w – it’s not actually my idea, I just found in other forums that a LOT of people suggested gluing the keys together. Apparently hot glue (vs low temp glue) is the best way to go. Now, this is a TOTAL hack, because when the keys are combined, you will always get a CTRL signal even when you don’t mean it. This would be considered “dirty” in that the OS is getting signals it wouldn’t otherwise (with a dedicated FN) be aware of. For example, if you’re in Photoshop and you hit CTRL, the cursor changes.
In other words, *truly* combining the keys isn’t really feasible. I’m just relaying a suggestion for anyone who finds themselves stuck with FN CTRL, by choice or force, and wants to take action.
October 1st, 2009 6:11 pm
@ John West – yes, I agree, and in fact your position is my position. I, too, want to use it as an external keyboard, and of course we are heretical for it. The FN faithful (i.e., the likes of wjli2) would have us burned. We’re not crashing your party, folks, it’s your host that realizes he needs new company. So if the market for external keyboards is significant, then it should go whole-hog CTRL FN, and keep the BIOS option to flip BACK to FN CTRL on the laptops.
October 1st, 2009 8:18 pm
joseph, by that logic we’d be left with Ctrl Fn Win Alt, pushing Ctrl and Alt even further apart. that’s a bad idea from a usability standpoint no matter what side of the fence you’re on.
as i said in the Fn+Ctrl blog, the BIOS switch could be coupled with the keys being able to be switched. this could even be done with a wide Ctrl key and narrow Fn key quite easily. this solution would keep everyone happy, including those like myself who have used the Fn+Ctrl layout since 1992 and don’t want to change our layouts.
personally, i like the Ctrl key where it is and have no problem using Shift+Ctrl, Ctrl+Alt, Ctrl+Z/X/C/V, or Ctrl+ any modifier key in any of my apps. in fact, i probably use the Ctrl key more than Shift and Alt combined.
does that make me a so-called elitist? absolutely not. it simply means i have 17 years of muscle memory built around the thinkpad keyboard layout. i can see the need for a change but see no reason to alienate half of a populous in the process by permanently switching physical keys. usability and flexibility tend to go hand-in-hand.
October 1st, 2009 10:19 pm
@erik – First off, usability for what we’re discussing is 100% about habit. Or, are you saying that QWERTY is some kind of ancient genetic expression? Of course not. Yes, as you say, CTRL WIN ALT is the standard layout. But, that does not mean AT ALL that those keys should henceforth and hereafter forever be inseparably chained in triptych. Why not? Because there’s more to it than just that. The other OBVIOUS quality these keys have is that they spread from the **LOWER LEFT** (CTRL) all the way over to the spacebar.
What does that matter? Well, muscle memory and convention dictate that going long and left hits CTRL. Look at the pre-WIN key keyboards. Guess what? They have a GAP between the CTRL and ALT keys. Why? Yes, right, that’s DEAD space. That’s a place where people weren’t used to finding anything key-like, as in, no-muscle-memory. So, Microsoft stuck a WIN key in there. A controversial key in its own right, but the point is that the region between CTRL and ALT was unclaimed. So now we have CTRL WIN ALT. But who is the newcomer?? It’s WIN. We have the **bookends** of CTRL and ALT, and WIN getting the sandwich. So, given that CTRL and ALT (CTRL and ALT-SPACE) are the **anchors**, where is the right USABILITY place to put FN? This is where IBM circled the wrong bubble.
I think you didn’t read my note about how the pinky is more flexible than the ring or middle finger. The reason it should be CTRL FN WIN ALT vs. CTRL WIN FN ALT is that the pinky finger has more travel. As the noob of the modifier keys, the finger most easily adapted is the pinky. So doesn’t this means FN CTRL would be valid, too? No. You’ll need to reread my post from the start.
Do you recall the original IBM justification for FN? Well, it has NOTHING to do with YOUR justification. It was to make it easy to turn on the light. Or, is that the usability you’re talking about?
Again, usability in this context is all habit, and the habit of all desktop users, most non-thinkpad users, and many yes-thinkpad users, is CTRL … ALT SPACE. The habit of some Thinkpad users *is* of course FN CTRL, but they are the MINORITY of possible **buyers**
October 1st, 2009 11:09 pm
@Joseph – Re your comment “Do you recall the original IBM justification for FN? Well, it has NOTHING to do with YOUR justification. It was to make it easy to turn on the light.”
Since the ThinkLight wasn’t introduced until 2000, I doubt it had anything to do with IBM’s keyboard layout decisions in the early 90’s.
Check out Figure 2-2 Terminal Keyboard Layout on page 20 in http://www.wyse.com/service/su.....270_02.pdf Look familiar?
While I don’t know that this was a consideration, IBM’s decision to put the Fn key outside that familiar layout would have made it easier for everyone coming off 3270 terminals to adjust. It certainly felt very natural to me at the time.
Jane
October 1st, 2009 11:57 pm
@Jane – The page 20, Figure 2-2, “Terminal Keyboard,” is CTRL FN. It shows CTRL ALT right there, just like I (and most other people) are suggesting it should be. So, what are you referring to in opposition to CTRL FN???
As to the light justification, then that means the original reason for FN in the corner is lost in time, cuz it’s IBM *designers* that stated the light justification.
October 2nd, 2009 12:10 am
@Jane – curious, do you have small hands? Sometimes I wash dishes, and sometimes I use gloves. They’d be Women’s size L, and they just barely fit me. I find that I have to cramp my fingers together to reliably hit the CTRL key on my Thinkpad – which includes a further inward twisting of my wrist. Not comfortable at all.
Maybe this is actually a battle of the hand sizes.
October 2nd, 2009 1:25 am
joseph – fwiw, i wear men’s size XL gloves and have no problem with the thinkpad layout. but, everyone’s hands are different in size, shape, and dexterity.
like i said above, my muscle memory is built around 17 years of using this layout and i see no reason why i should change. i prefer the Fn+Ctrl simply because i use Shift+Ctrl hundreds of times during the day and find the Fn+Ctrl placement makes this combo easier.
again, a BIOS switch function and the ability to physically move the keys in both configurations will keep everyone happy. i’d like to see a solution that keeps you just as happy as jane. (actually, i’d prefer to keep jane happier… lol
) arguing about which layout is supposedly “more correct” is futile since we all have our preferences and each have muscle memory built around the platforms to which we are most accustomed — some around Fn+Ctrl and others around the rest of the layouts. trying to convince long-time users that their way is wrong is in itself wrong. i’m sure you understand that. 
on a side note, the keyboard i use daily is a full-size ultranav with a japanese layout. while this keyboard doesn’t have a win key, it does have more keys than a US layout. my newer thinkpads all have win keys and my X61s is missing the alt key on the right side because of the japanese layout. when i get a new thinkpad, i’ll have to deal with a change in the escape and delete keys as well. if anyone understands how confusing this stuff can get when having to change layouts or move keys, i’d probably be one of them. plus, i’ve designed a couple of keyboard layouts for clients (one for a touchscreen kiosk and the other for a qwerty cell phone) and have a tiny bit of experience in this department. so, trust me when i say “i can relate.”
October 2nd, 2009 2:28 am
@erik – well, here’s what I mean: 1 person that loves something vs 5 people that unlove it. A business currently sells to that 1 person, but they want to expand. Alas, the 5 people unlove that very thing that the 1 person loves. What is a business to do? Right, 17 years of X and it’s time for Y. Here’s an example: Apple, a company I both love and hate, drops support for an ENTIRE generation of computer hardware (PPC) that THEY produced and sold as THE thing to have. They barked up and down, their faithful barked up and down, about the evil MS/Intel empire. Now those poor PPC sods have to buy all new *Intel* equipment to remain in their god’s favor because the new Apple OS is not compatible with the “old” hardware. Did it hurt their business?
Now, I agree, a BIOS switch is a good solution for internal keyboards. Unfortunately, it doesn’t address the 3rd party external keyboard market. Now if they do BIOS for internal, they’ve got a seriously bipolar product line because it can behave two ways internally, but you’re SOL on the USB.
You know, I just had a really great idea on how to make everyone happy, even people who don’t care. I’m going to call my patent lawyer first, then I’ll write back.
October 2nd, 2009 2:51 am
Here’s another way to look at it:
The only loss to Lenovo is the revenue they’re NOT getting because of CTRL FN.
I mean really, REALLY, why should they care if people are used to FN CTRL? Here’s what I mean. Take a deep breath, and answer this question honestly…
Would I stop buying Thinkpads if they switched to CTRL FN?
Be serious and objective with your answer. Yes, you would probably be angry, you might even THINK about going to Dell or HP. Did you get the shudders when I suggested that? I did! But, like most *existing* Thinkpad users, the experience is much more than this issue.
So, of course, you *would* still use the keyboard. Thinkpad users are a captive audience for OTHER reasons. Lenovo can make more people happy than unhappy with a switch to CTRL FN, and the people it would make unhappy are ALREADY addicts. I still agree that a BIOS switch is a good idea, but in light of the above, here’s what the BIOS switch should look like:
Physical -> CTRL FN
BIOS flip -> FN CTRL
And here is what USB keyboards would then look like
Physical -> CTRL FN
Anyway, I’m still thinking of something else.
October 2nd, 2009 2:53 am
Clarification:
The only loss to Lenovo is the revenue they’re NOT getting because of their FN CTRL layout
October 2nd, 2009 10:30 am
[...] Source [...]
October 2nd, 2009 10:41 am
absolutely. i would stop buying new thinkpads if old thinkpad keyboards were incompatible with new models. heck, i won’t even buy the keyboard shown at the top of this blog because it doesn’t have a dedicated number pad — a feature i use constantly to enter dimensions, calculate measurements, etc. already my needs in an input device have been overlooked. a permanent change to ctrl+Fn would alienate me completely.
this may be true but by this logic lenovo could sell more systems if they included both a trackpoint and touchpad on every model. however, new users constantly flock to the X200 series and learn to use the trackpoint. it’s rare to see a post where someone says they want to sell their X-series because they can’t get used to the trackpoint. it’s equally rare to see a thinkpad up for sale simply because of Fn+ctrl. both do happen but these cases are extremely rare. if this was such a big deal, i’m sure the X-series would have had a touchpad by now (save for the X300/X301). even if you could find 10,000 unique complaints about Fn+ctrl online, this would pale in comparison to the number of units IBM and lenovo have sold since 1992.
given that, i just don’t see Fn+ctrl with a BIOS swap being a deterrent to those who want to switch the keys. if anything, this would be the change that brings in the hypothetical amount of new customers. if lenovo magically doubled their profits because of the BIOS switch, then i could see an argument to changing the physical layout. until then, your side of the argument unfortunately is based on speculation. my side is backed by sales numbers.
besides, if you can ask me to try and accept ctrl+Fn then i can just as easily ask you to try and accept Fn+ctrl with a BIOS swap. there are literally thousands of keyboards out there with ctrl keys where you want them. why can’t i have a keyboard with Fn and ctrl where i want them?
regarding your apple analogy above, apple’s switch from 680xx, to PowerPC, to intel chips doesn’t apply 1:1 since their computers have used the same basic input methods since day one: a one-button mouse and their proprietary keyboard layout. i can dust off my SE-30 or IIfx and compare it to the latest mac pro and see no differences in key layout or mouse configuration. apple has been the same in those regards since the late 80s. any changes they’ve made to input devices have been additions, not replacements (such as the mighty mouse or multitouch touch pads). by your logic, apple would sell more computers if they went with a 7-row PC keyboard layout instead of the unique 6-row apple layout. as it stands, if you don’t like apple’s keyboard, you simply won’t buy an apple.
the one major change apple made was in getting rid of the mouse button altogether, which, in my opinion, is enough to keep me from ever buying an apple — not that one mouse button was all that useful to an industrial designer who actually needs three buttons, let alone one.
October 2nd, 2009 11:26 am
@erik – I find it hard to accept your unbending stance that CTRL FN would repel you from thinkpads – didn’t you just state that you are highly adaptable to such various layouts as a Japanese keyboard and the X61s?
Anyway, what would you use instead? It sounds like you’re a Thinkpad man all around.
Now even if it is FN CTRL or bust, here’s my point: There are a finite number of people that would *leave*, and an infinite number that could *join*. So, the only reason (and perhaps this is my deficiency) I can think of for Lenovo to do a BIOS switch is because they want a wider audience. They know that they are alienating *potential* customers, which on balance is a *larger* market than existing customers. That isn’t speculation, it’s a simple fact that Thinkpad users are a fraction of a very tight market. Anything they can do to up the numbers would be beneficial.
Regarding Apple, they have a history of dropping support and yet retaining their fan base. Now i agree, their single button is AWFUL, but as I mentioned far above, they can get away with it because Apple is “one” with style. The people that buy Apple (disclaimer: when not for compatibility testing) are first and foremost buying a lifestyle, so the technical, dysfunctional whatz-itz CAN be used for their identity. Hence, the single-button middle-finger to the rest of the computer industrial design world.
My Apple analogy, or maybe fable, is simply that a company can become more competitive even when tectonic shifts alienate a block of *existing* customers. Again, this is because the net of angry-I’m-outta-here people + sweet-I’m-all-about-that + whatever-I-don’t-give-a-hoot > current-revenues. In other words, angry-folks won’t offset happy/unconcerned folks.
So, I would love to hear a better idea than growing market share on why Lenovo is considering the BIOS switch, because the above is what I infer.
I do NOT think this is to assuage current user strife. You are the first person I have heard of that would drop Thinkpads because of a need for FN in the corner.
And note to those that would follow up in agreement with erik – your sentiment has not previously been aired, like so many other possible gripes, so the feeling you might NOW want to express is obviously NOT top priority relative to people who have stated ALREADY they will not buy a thinkpad because of the FN issue. In other words, CTRL FN is a more desirable combination, because it has been stated as a reason people do not buy Thinkpads. FN CTRL has been mentioned as a feature people like, but never before the previous post have I seen it as a must have. So to summarize:
CTRL FN is a more desirable combination, because it has been stated as a reason people do not buy Thinkpads.
October 2nd, 2009 3:34 pm
Wauuu its looks very interesting
I would like to buy the Keyboard on the top on 3. Place but with these improvments
1- I never use Windows key so I don’t want a Windows key
2- on the right side there you sould add numbers and + – /
and should have the same typing quality as those from thinkpads
October 3rd, 2009 6:17 am
Although the keyboard looks nice, there are reasons why I will not buy it.
(1) The large delete key!
Solution: Replace the large delete key with ordinary ins and del keys. If you want the keyboard layout to appeal to more (desktop) users, then place the Fn key above the F9 and shift the other three (PrtSc, ScrLk, Pause) to their ordinary (notebook) places above F10, F11, F12, thus the left ctrl key will be in the lower left, as erik’s comment suggested.
(2) the window and menu keys!
Solution: remove these keys altogether. The window key which is just ctrl-esc and the menu keys is just shift-F10 or ctrl-shift-F10 or on this keyboard the right trackpoint button. Therefore they are completely superfluous.
As it is i’ll be looking for another keyboard (sadly without the trackpoint). When point 1 and 2 are resolved, then i’ll probably buy it. The version with a numeric keypad is appreciated, but not necessary for me, is we already have a numeric keypad underneath the keys u,i,o (=4,5,6) etc., which is accessible through the numlock key.
Hope to see some new developments soon, and see the result on my desktop!
October 4th, 2009 9:11 pm
@O8h7w, the flex seems to be due to the floppy plastic used for the keyboard chassis. You get the effect with or without using the height-raising feet provided (both options give the keyboard 4 rubber feet to land on the desk).
I wish the ThinkPad design team (or what is left of it) at Lenovo were more discerning. It’s what makes you guys stand out from Dell and HP. You really need to follow the Apple playbook here and sweat the details. I have both the Apple and new ThinkPad external keyboards and the Apple one actually improves on the laptop one and the ThinkPad one is worse than what’s found in the notebooks.
I’ve been a heavy X60 user and more recently a T400 and both had better keyboard experiences, even if with similar keyboard. This external one is relatively poor, hitting a single key makes the whole thing rattle, and just feels cheap. Maybe I just have a dud model but I doubt it.
Sorry guys, as you can see from my previous posts I was excited about this product and have paid for it, but quite frankly it’s turned out to be a let down compared to what it could have been. You really need to scrutinize your own products more carefully before giving them the green light.
October 5th, 2009 3:37 am
you underestimate me.
i’m adaptable to a certain extent. luckily i don’t use the X61s very often so the switch isn’t too bad. keep in mind that all my keyboards are japanese — the only change i have to endure is in the added win key and lack of right alt key.
i would simply keep using my current hardware.
again, it’s more desirable to you but not to long-time thinkpad users. i fail to understand why you can’t accept a solution that lets us both be happy. i’m advocating a solution for both of us while you’re advocating a solution that alienates long-time thinkpad users and forces them to either change or jump ship. your unbending argument to permanently change the layout to ctrl+Fn is odd, especially if you have any industrial design experience. you should consider being more flexible in your arguments.
food for thought.
October 5th, 2009 2:16 pm
If it were only beneficial to myself I would not be writing at all. For example, I think it is *ridiculous* for people to suggest the removal of the WIN key. Almost 90% of daily-driver computers use Windows. Not just of Thinkpads, of course, but of all computers. That key isn’t going anywhere, and rightly so.
Now, the “you” in “it’s more desirable to you but not to long-time thinkpad users” isn’t the me (Joseph) in singular, it is a LOT of people in a lot of blogs and, well, even the people I work with. My programming team has Thinkpads, and we all despise the layout. I just asked our CEO and he says he doesn’t care.
Now to communal happiness, yes, I agree that the proposed BIOS solution makes “both” of us happy, but here is how it can be fixed for even MORE people (this is not my new new idea, but one that still solves the problem):
1) Physical layout CTRL FN
2) BIOS switch to FN CTRL
What?? That again!? Yes. I’ll review: because now the external keyboards can be sold to the 92% of non-Thinkpad users who just want a sweet keyboard. And, veterans get to keep their muscle memory. Not only does this solve it for current users, it provides NO inhibitors to new Thinkpad users, and also extends *standardized* usability to external keyboard buyers. My “unbending” stance is based on appealing to a wider audience than keeping the current layout and throwing a bone to Thinkpad (only, not external keyboard) users. My position is opening the market rather than just dry cleaning that old 90’s suit.
There are enough FN CTRL external keyboards in stock to provide anyone, such as yourself, with a “way back” until, shine the day, FN CTRL is lost to a new generations of Lenovo computer buyers. However, the BIOS feature can remain forever in Lenovo’s new builds – hence, everyone is happy, even new users *who will not have to learn another keyboard dialect*
October 6th, 2009 1:44 am
@anonymous – The win key is not just ctrl-esc, it’s a wonderful meta key by itself. Win-D shows the desktop, for example. Try that with ctrl-esc-D. I’m not super-excited about the double-height keys, but I do like the return of ESC to the leftmost position, over above F1. I’ll agree I don’t mind about the menu key, though – that could go above F9, if they wanted (Dell puts it there).
Here’s one I’d really like – I’d like the Fn-key to enable the numeric keypad, without having to use numlock. It works the other way – numlock+J=1/Numlock+(FN-J)=J, why can’t it be
J=J/(FN-J)=1, when numlock is off? I’ve seen this offered as a BIOS enabled setting in other brands, and seems easy enough to do. (Numlock XOR FN == numpad).
October 6th, 2009 5:25 pm
@Gaurav Sharma: Thankyou for the report! Excellent.
I would have liked it better with a higher price tag and no flex, anyone who agrees?
@Anon: I switched Num lock with Caps lock on my T43 using a keyboard remapping software, to reach the numbers quicker. Worked good, but I too would like to temporary write numbers holding a modifier. But I’d like that to be in the same key. And what really disturbs me is what I don’t reach when I write numbers, i.e. ( ) = [ ] and . for the sake of ThinkPads!
@Joseph, and the debate as a whole:
First off, I won’t buy a new ThinkPad because of Ctrl being too small. That way, the placing of it doesn’t matter to me. I’ll stick with my T43 until it wont run anymore. In addition I’ll probably buy a cheap build-it-yourself stationary computer, and an old external keyboard with numpad.
And then I’m really interested in your other idea. I hope you’ve got a fast patent lawyer
Anyway, I didn’t like that you missed out completely on what Jane was trying to tell you. Or do you need to check your eyes? Ctrl should be next to Alt. Having free space between them is just as stupid as putting some keys there.
I agree that the Win key is useful. But for start menu I catch myself using Ctrl-Esc instead. I don’t agree that Fn has the right to exist – still I use it. Feels wrong every time. I don’t see why it shouldn’t be a row of buttons for these “machine coupled” functions…
I would even say that the menu key can be used. I do use it – whenever I don’t have a TrackPoint, I run the system more or less solely with the keyboard. And that means it should not interfere with the important Ctrl and Alt Gr keys on this very keyboard.
And yet again, if anyone was dumb enough to read all this, thankyou and think about it!
October 6th, 2009 8:13 pm
Hmm. I take part of my statement back. Turns out Numlock+Fn-J!=J, it’s 1. So I want that too, now. I could have sworn I’d seen it do that in the past. Either way, I’ve seen lots of manufacturers do that one.
October 7th, 2009 2:33 pm
wireless. please!
i love the trackpoint but i’ve learned the real beauty lies in the ability to navigate without moving your hand. very nice when using it in your lap. would make the perfect addition to the living room media center – and no one else has a product as good. the other wireless keyboards with a pointing device just don’t come close to the trackpoint.
October 7th, 2009 4:37 pm
@Anon:
Most notebooks use Fn for writing with the hidden numbers. I’ve seen that some Dells doesn’t even use Numlock for that, providing no locking for writing many numbers. Needless to say, my pinky was trapped when I tried to use one. I hit Ctrl and suddenly I wasn’t writing numbers anymore. How annoying is that?
Well what really gets me going about this is the dot. I’m from Sweden, and in swedish we use comma for decimal point. But in english they use dot, and lots of software is english. And some foolish keyboard layouter thought that when you write numbers you want the comma where it usually is on the numeric keypads, and turned the dot to a comma under Numlock. So now when I write numbers I have two keys providing a comma, but I want a dot. Ends up I have to unset and reset Numlock for every decimal point when I write numbers! Ridiculous!
October 8th, 2009 12:22 pm
@O8h7w – I want both features. I want to be able to use FN to get the numbers, *and* I want numlock to do so. I want both on to give me letters again. That’s trivial programatically. I also find it a bit frustrating that scroll lock is the primary function over numlock, but that’s at least changeable in software. Condolences about the comma issue. Does it get a different scancode, perhaps? If so, you might be able to remap that.
October 8th, 2009 4:27 pm
Regarding my ignoring Jane’s comment – it’s because that interpretation (CTRL next to ALT) is not valid for any modern keyboard. It’s not a discussion point. Two possible scenarios, both which deny CTRL ALT brotherhood:
1) CTRL in the lower left, ALT astride SPACE. Doesn’t work because you need the WIN key, which has NEVER gone to the left of CTRL. This would be *total* confusion. Out.
2) CTRL *not* in the corner but to the left of ALT, ALT astride SPACE. Doesn’t work, again, because now the WIN has nowhere to go (again, can’t be left of CTRL). Out.
So there you have it. Under no circumstance can CTRL be next to ALT, so it’s a non-issue even for FN CTRL people.
October 8th, 2009 4:40 pm
My only complaint with the keyboard is that the new driver causes the scrolling function to work in both horizontal and vertical directions AT THE SAME TIME!
This is different from the built-in scrolling function on T60p/T61p Thinkpads I’m using and different from the USB External Ultranav Keyboard and the USB Travel Ultranav Keyboard.
Those will only scroll horizonally or vertically at one time. You have to release pressure on the Trackpoint and apply pressure in the other axis (while still holding down the middle blue scroll button) to switch axis.
The new one scrolls BOTH ways at the same time. So if your page has both horizontal and vertical scroll bars, and you just want to scroll DOWN, you end up weaving back and forth trying to keep the pressure centered, but downward. It’s like you’re drunk or something.
I don’t know why the change, except that the new keyboard’s Trackpoint doesn’t seem to work with any of the older drivers, or the Synaptics drivers.
This is definitely something that should be addressed in a driver update.
Also, I can’t seem to get Excel 2007 to scroll at all under Vista x64. Odd.
Otherwise, great move! I like the lighted mute button.
Stephen
October 9th, 2009 7:00 am
Oops, let me qualify that last Excel 2007 comment. I can only scroll HORIZONTALLY in one particular spreadsheet, but not VERTICALLY even though there are more rows below the viewable area.
I opened a blank Excel worksheet and can scroll both directions with no problem.
So this doesn’t appear to be a Vista x64 issue.
Sorry for the confusion.
Stephen
October 9th, 2009 9:11 am
[...] would suggest that I am far from being the only one interested in this hot topic. SInce I last blogged about our newly introduced keyboard, and the “crowd sourced” methodology we used to [...]
October 12th, 2009 3:52 pm
being a finance person, i actually do need the number pad a lot. i wish there will be a version with number pad in the future.
October 14th, 2009 3:56 pm
s/fome/foam/ ?
October 23rd, 2009 12:01 pm
Looks like a great update…but I am extremely disappointed it’s not wireless – it would have been the defacto HTPC keyboard among techies.
October 27th, 2009 3:06 am
I like the fact that Fn Ctrl instead of Ctrl Fn. Please don’t ever change that… It makes my notebook unique than other else =)
October 28th, 2009 2:39 am
you don’t know how happy you’ve made me. finally the tactile feel of the keyboard. it’s a shame that the most important thing is so difficult to market. wireless, key layout (as long as you don’t go to crazy), USB hub, are fare behind tactile feel. the old thinkpad external keyboard is much better than most, but i can’t wait to get an actual replica of the thinkpad keyboard. also, i’m glad you finally rid of that pesky bump from the touchpad at the bottom. lastly, i must express sadness at the loss of the two big alt keys. my convention was to remap the right alt to windows. having two alts and a window and context select button make all of them less useful since they are so small. no need for degenerate keys (maybe except control…)!
October 28th, 2009 6:57 pm
unique != better. Also, Gateway has it, so you’re not even unique.
October 28th, 2009 11:05 pm
I like wireless more than wired.
October 29th, 2009 5:13 pm
Another vote for fingerprint reader here!
November 1st, 2009 10:54 am
Any need to install the Lenovo disc drivers when using this on a Windows 7 system? It seems to be working properly but I want to make sure I’m not missing any features the driver disc adds.
November 2nd, 2009 8:53 am
Regardless of which side of the fence we’re on about the external keyboard, I don’t think any of us helped design the horror that is coming out of 51nb. See the thread on TPF at:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/vie.....mp;t=81722
for the screenshots and reactions.
November 2nd, 2009 12:39 pm
Mine showed up in the mail last week. I do like it. Really nice design… lightweight and slim, still nice and sturdy. Keys have a nice feel, and the larger Delete key is great. Haven’t tried spilling stuff on it or feeding it crumbs yet!
(BTW, I did notice that you have reused the mask for applying clear protectant over the letters… on the PgUp key you can see where the icon for the Think Light would go!)
November 2nd, 2009 4:40 pm
Adding to what eric said:
“eric Says:
October 28th, 2009 at 2:39 am
lastly, i must express sadness at the loss of the two big alt keys. my convention was to remap the right alt to windows. having two alts and a window and context select button make all of them less useful since they are so small.”
On this keyboard the Windows context kek is pretty much 100% redundant, as an 1½ inches to the left is the right-mouse button! Much more useful is a second Windows key… so I used KeyTweak to remap it.
November 4th, 2009 1:11 pm
Update on my experience with this keyboard.
Been using this keyboard for a while this week. I still like it quite a bit (the larger Esc. and Delte keys are excellent!), however I do have one request/suggestion for improving it.
Compared to the older Ultranave travel keyboard the edges of this this keyboard have much sharper angles. There are occasions when I only use the cursor keys and the TrackPoint (e.g. web surfing) resulting in my hands staying in the same places on the keyboard for extended periods. When I rest my hand on the palm rest with my fingers on the cursor keys, the corner of the keyboard digs into the palm of my hand. A larger radius on the edges and corner would make things more comfortable.
November 5th, 2009 12:41 pm
Caps Lock light is in a poor location. It is not visible to touch typists as it is blocked by the little finger sitting on the “A” key. Better location for the light would be at the top of the keyboard.
November 5th, 2009 2:16 pm
The main reason I can see to make a wireless version (bluetooth) is that it can be used for any device… with the right drivers iPhones, Blackberries, tablets, Microsoft’s upcoming courier, old Palm T|X’s, Playstations or XBoxes (?), etc.could all be used without compromising the ability to type. Is it possible to somehow create some kind of on-keyboard indicator LED to indicate what device it is currently attached to, and allow switching in between.
Maybe I am a real niche market, but I would buy several.
November 10th, 2009 5:14 pm
Still using this keyboard…… it is very nice to type one. But I have found yet another issue with it:
The tigher key-spacing does help keep crumbs out of the keyboard. Unfortunately, if a crumb is sitting on the gap between two keys and you press one of the keys… the crumb falls in when pressing the key opens gap. And then it is absolute hell to get the crumb back out. Fortunately the crumb in question was from a hard cookie and I was able to crush it by press keys down.
November 10th, 2009 7:43 pm
The keyboard is one of the best ones I’ve ever seen. I just got mine after quite some time of waiting. I already love it.
Did anyone get this to work with any linux distribution?
But the middle-click-scrolling doesn’t work out of the box with openSUSE.
November 11th, 2009 4:23 am
Hello, keyboard enthusiast here. I’m not personally in the market for a scissor-key board (I use more expensive mechanical keyswitch boards from Filco and PFU), but just going by what I see and my past positive experiences with Thinkpad keyboards, your keyboard is likely one of the best values in its price segment. Layout is no-nonsense, looks perfect. No keypad is a particularly positive thing for the majority of people (even if they do know how to touch type a keypad; I do and I still want no keypad) because they do not do anywhere near enough number entry to offset the ergonomic losses. Still waiting for mainstream manufacturers to grasp that fact. (Interestingly, Apple did wise up to this just a while ago.)
One easy improvement suggestion though. Ditch the indented Caps Lock button for a normal one. The sole purpose of the intendation is to make the button harder to use, which is backwards. Either you use the button or not. If you do, why want it difficult to use? If not, it’s best to remap it to something useful like Ctrl/Backspace/Esc, and then an intendation like that is seriously annoying.
November 23rd, 2009 12:28 pm
I think there is a good reason to re-introduce the touchpad, but only if it adds new features.
I’ve lately been using a MacBook with a multi-touch trackpad. The touchpad makes a decent pointer. The mouse is still better.
But the multi-touch gestures for common operations are fantastic. I can use the entire surface to scroll up/down, move forward/back through web pages, view the desktop, and switch between applications. It also supports other gestures such as rotate and zoom, but I rarely use them.
Based on my experience with the MacBook, the ultranav would benefit from a trackpad. But only if it went beyond being a pointing device to
support easy to learn gestures for common operations, especially navigating within documents and between applications.
November 30th, 2009 12:48 pm
[...] que não são poucas, diga-se de passagem) — em especial o seu novo teclado — cujo layout foi bastante discutido com os usuários de ThinkPad no blog da [...]
December 4th, 2009 4:03 pm
I still hate the segregation of the cursor keys – Home and End far from Up Down Left Right. And the Delete key hidden inside, not at the edge, tho bigger is better. Does no one edit their work? A keyboard shouldn’t be “write-only”.
Since it HAS to be black, why not make the white lettering bolder for easier keyboard navigation – at least for the non-letter keys.
Fix the T400s keyboard first, THEN copy it.
tOM
December 4th, 2009 4:07 pm
Also, I miss the trackpad – I find it faster and easier on the fingers than our beloved trackpoint.
Designers may also be interested in “9 Things I Hate About Laptops” – http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....04453.html
tOM
December 8th, 2009 10:10 pm
I have the IBM USB Keyboard with UltraNav (31P8950 ) – no longer available on Amazon. It was a bit buggy with windows xp using a thinkpad, but it works great with an HP running vista – go figure.
I like having both the pointing stick and trackpad. I have the track pad configured for the scrolling feature which you don’t get with just the stick. In fact I have an older T22 (without the trackpad) and it is annoying to not have both the stick and pad. I’m glad my hp is a business model with both a stick and trackpad.
I would definitely like to have a wireless option. Because of the steady price drop in large lcd screens, I now have one at home and work, thus I need a wireless keyboard that I could easily take with me.
December 13th, 2009 12:49 am
Please tell me there’s a switch on the bottom to swap the Fn and Ctrl keys….
December 19th, 2009 9:39 am
I think I still haven’t written that I would buy a wireless one right now, if it was available…
December 28th, 2009 10:46 am
+1 for the swapable Fn and Ctrl keys.
Placing the Fn key in the lower left corner makes the Thinkpad’s keyboard annoying as h… to use, when every other keyboard you use, has CTRL on that exact spot.
December 28th, 2009 3:09 pm
I came across this while looking for a WIRELESS keyboard with trackpoint. Such a thing does not, to my great disappointment, exist.
I see some posts denigrating a wireless version. I believe these posts are from people who use their computer in a traditional way – sitting at a desk in front of the monitor. With the availability of affordable large screen LCD TVs these days, many people are moving towards a home theater type of setup in which a wired keyboard makes absolutely no sense.
Every single wireless keyboard on the market is currently a disappointment (at least for me) because I can’t control the mouse without taking my hands off the home key row. Touchpads and trackballs just don’t work that well. I can’t efficiently operate a computer without having mouse control literally at my fingertips.
So, Lenovo, please. A wireless version. I will not buy a wired version.
December 31st, 2009 5:35 pm
Hardware switch plus alternate Fn/Ctrl keycaps would do the trick, wouldn’t it?
I got used to Fn on the outside myself.
January 1st, 2010 12:13 am
Does anyone know if there is a way to make the mute button light (and possibly the mic mute button) work on a non-thinkpad computer?
January 1st, 2010 12:18 am
Nevermind, I just didn’t receive a CD with drivers with the keyboard… speaker mute button led works fine now after installing the drivers from the web site
January 6th, 2010 11:43 pm
Here’s a keyboard layout that’s pretty swank:
http://abkey.biz/press/CES_nomination.jpg
January 7th, 2010 5:32 am
I just see that its price is $59 now. not $40 anymore. T-T
http://bit.ly/88P10B
why does the price increase?
January 12th, 2010 6:48 am
These keyboards are fantastic, I bought two, one for work and one for home. My only real complaint is the plastic seems slightly thin and I don’t really care about that. I’ve never used a more forgiving keyboard. Often I’ll be mentally preparing to correct a frequently-made typo and find there’s no typo to fix.
If only we could have universal vi and/or emacs keybindings (Excel! I don’t want to reach for arrows…) I would be in keyboard heaven.
January 15th, 2010 2:50 pm
[...] are some people, such as this comment on the Lenovo blog, who question all of the following keys: Caps Lock PgUp / PgDn Insert Pause / [...]
January 18th, 2010 1:03 pm
@teerapap
It was never $40. Perhaps you are refering to the comment about the price being _reduced_ by $40 wrt to the older version of the keyboard?
I still really like this keyboard. I just bought a second one for use at home.
January 27th, 2010 9:43 am
Dear Lenovo,
because of your new keyboard thinkpad design you have made me very sad, disappointed and a little bit angry too.
I use quite a lot of thinkpads and also desktop ThinkCentre Lenovo with ordinary keyboard.
The problem with your new design is in oversizing DELETE key and moving of INSERT to the left.
You have caused that instead of CTRL+INSERT I press many times CTRL+DELETE.
Did you take into account milions of users (especially developers etc.) who are using described combination at least 20 times a day without regard if they use thinkpad or ordinary PC keyboard ? I think you completely ignore some keyboard standards. For your defence, I understand, there is no standard keyboard for notebooks. But YOU as LENOVO YOU WERE ONLY PRODUCER WHO WAS ABLE TO PRODUCE PROFESSSIONAL KEYBOARD ON NOTEBOOKS. NOW IT IS OVER. I strongly believe you RETURN BACK OLD STANDARD KEYBOARD DEDIGN AT LEAST AS THE DELETE AND INSERT KEYS IS CONCERNED.
Regards,
Petr K.
January 27th, 2010 10:21 pm
Please please please make a wireless version of this keyboard. I love Thinkpad keyboards and the only thing missing is the wireless part…
While I would prefer a bluetooth version, the fact that BT mice/keyboards take several seconds to connect after it idles is really annoying.
January 27th, 2010 10:25 pm
Adding to the above, I won’t buy a wired version because I like to have a cable-free work environment.
February 5th, 2010 6:12 pm
Wireless version please. I love the trackpoint.
February 5th, 2010 6:16 pm
I’ve been using a keyboard with built in trackpoint for over 10 years. The new one I bought in 2005 had to be replaced in early 2009. A coworker wanted to replace her 10 year old model with the new model but no keypad is a killer for accountants! Anyone know where to get the older model? Glad to see the touchpad is going away. I disabled that as soon as I activated the keyboard. Also glad to hear the new ones are more spillproof. That’s likely what killed my 2005 model.)
February 18th, 2010 10:09 am
I am really very serious. Mr. Hill has still not responded even my personal email.
The new HIGE DELETE key can even cause countable financial damage.
MR. HILL I BEG YOU, PLEASE RESPOND ME.
Dear Lenovo,
because of your new keyboard thinkpad design you have made me very sad, disappointed and a little bit angry too.
I use quite a lot of thinkpads and also desktop ThinkCentre Lenovo with ordinary keyboard.
The problem with your new design is in oversizing DELETE key and moving of INSERT to the left.
You have caused that instead of CTRL+INSERT I press many times CTRL+DELETE.
Did you take into account milions of users (especially developers etc.) who are using described combination at least 20 times a day without regard if they use thinkpad or ordinary PC keyboard ? I think you completely ignore some keyboard standards. For your defence, I understand, there is no standard keyboard for notebooks. But YOU as LENOVO YOU WERE ONLY PRODUCER WHO WAS ABLE TO PRODUCE PROFESSSIONAL KEYBOARD ON NOTEBOOKS. NOW IT IS OVER. I strongly believe you RETURN BACK OLD STANDARD KEYBOARD DEDIGN AT LEAST AS THE DELETE AND INSERT KEYS IS CONCERNED.
Regards,
Petr K.
February 19th, 2010 6:39 am
Hello,
in relation with my previous message I would like to informa you I have already received answer from Mr. Hill.
I am now just suggesting that Lenovo could sell “old classic” USB External Thinkpad Keyboard. Especially for those like me (i.e. milions of developers) who use a lot of Thinkpads together with PCs.
And the best at the end. I bet with Mr. Hill that one year later Lenovo will produce Txxx models again with old classic 6 keys in the top right corner of the keyboard. The bet is just the first new Txxx model with this old classic keyboard.
If I lose I have to buy the newly designed one
Petr K.
SW developer and architect
February 28th, 2010 10:20 am
[...] blog ??? David Hill ???? ????????????? ??????!! ?? Trackpoint [...]
March 6th, 2010 5:17 pm
hello,
I’ve heard the old keyboard no longer sold. lucky i grab one of this UltraNav USB with touchpad and numeric pad (31P8975) today. Well. the touching of the numeric pad had a totally different feeling with the rest of the keys is just like i am typing on a poorly made keyboard cost like rmb15.
I brought the old model with numeric pad & trackpad today. besides the poor key feeling on numeric pad, everything works fine EXCEPT on win7 64bit version. trackpoint isn’t working and act wired.
Lenovo team, there are peoples on earth who are desperate to live with numeric pad… accountants.. financial markets/field.
some suggestions:
1. numeric keypad is great. we love it.
2. maybe a highspeed SDHC card reader?
3. a 30% larger surface of touchpad with multi-touch capability for chinese peoples to write chinese characters as a writing board?
4. usb3.0 with 1 or 2 ports like the old one.
5a) We want a “windows” key !
5b) enlarge size of “esc” and “delete” key is good. the new relocate “insert” key seems not very convinence.
6. maybe 4 to 8 user custom programmable keys? just like those keyboards sold for POS systems.
for financial markers users, we’ll love to see these programmable keys. *(please, Non-software based)
7. keep the quality of the new new USB UltraNav keyboard in the future. Don’t compromise on quality!
8. hopefully lenovo support team will fix the old 31p8950 with the win7 issues.
We are looking forward for the new new UltraNav keyboard so i can throw away my noisy Cherry mechnicial keyboard.
Hong Kong User.
K.Ng
March 8th, 2010 5:58 am
I’ve just noticed that T510 comes with this keyboard layout and I’m very disappointed. I hate the new home key cluster with its huge “Delete” key. Please return to the old layout!
March 9th, 2010 4:08 am
I have finally perceived why Lenovo launched huge DELETE key etc. Next year Lenovo can come again with old good standard classic keyboard layout and doing so they will have assured money income because all working people who are now getting new Thinkpads with non-standard keyboard they will surely buy new models with classic keyboard layout. It is just all about money…
March 9th, 2010 4:11 am
And once more again. It is really miracle that at least model X301 keeps old good classic keyboard layout. It also shows how Lenovo’s keyboard strategy is not well organised. Thanks to God.
Petr
March 9th, 2010 1:11 pm
It’s too bad I missed the survey for this. I am a huge fan of the keyboard in my ThinkPad, but I would have been the voice of dissent against leaving out the keypad. As it turns out, this is a very important feature for typists who need to use ascii codes to insert special characters. As a translator, I do that a lot. I know I could change the language of my keyboard, but like I said, I need to function in two languages at the same time; switching between them is not cost effective for me.
I certainly would miss the TrackPad, but I can live without it; the keypad is another story. Maybe if this model sells well, we can have a full-size one for the international market. Regardless, the lower cost of this model is much appreciated.
March 10th, 2010 1:03 pm
If you are entering in a lot of special characters on a US keyboard… you need AllChars:
http://allchars.zwolnet.com/
I now have three of these keyhboards, and they are just excellent.
March 16th, 2010 4:25 am
I bought this keyboard I helped design. IT feels great, like the one on my T410s.
BUt…. THe keyboard is more or less useless to me. HAve a search on the net, the keyboards SHIFT button ‘retains’ to long (driver issue) when released. THis means that when typing fast, more than 1 letter gets capitalized.
SO hopefully new drivers are on the way that solve this irritating behavior…
March 16th, 2010 4:51 am
I have been using this keyboard for more than a week now. It is very good overall and I would not highlight the great features of this keyboard but sum it up as “must have for keyboard lovers”
However I MUST HIGHLIGHT A PROBLEM which I have been facing and incidentally has also been noticed by others who have posted their views at amazon.com in the review for this keyboard.
The problem is that the shift key holds too long so that if you are typing fast you tend to capitalise two characters rather than one. For e.g In the game becomes “IN the game” though only if you are typing fast enough. I have the latest 2009 driver and the problem is pretty consistent.
But for this problem I think this is one of the best keyboards I have typed on. I hope the Lenovo team is listening and someone is going to take notice of this issue.
I hope someone takes notice of this comment and replies to it.
And before I sign off ….ofcourse make it wireless…its not rocket science to understand that wireless is essential or implement it. Are we living in 1980s or what…and by the way most people dont worry about shelling out a few dollars extra for some good features….we dont want cheap…we want good….please!!!
thanks
March 24th, 2010 10:06 am
[...] Lenovo gør det, Nokia gør det, hvorfor skulle Danmark ikke gøre det? [...]
March 27th, 2010 12:20 pm
I also own the keyboard. But in comparison with the exchanged keyboard in my T400 (You remember, Lenovo exchanged them because of the soft keys), some disappointing things must be noted:
- The keyboard feels EXACTLY like the old, wabbly-soft T400 keyboard, but looks like the “new” keyboards with the large delete key etc. Is this soft touch expected? Or is there an exchange program for these keyboards, too?
- The left and right mouse buttons are also not as stiff as the old, straight buttons: If you click the left button on the right lower end, near the middle button, the OS gets these notifies: Button 1 down, (up to a second delay), Button 1 up, (eventually again: Button 1 down) — so the button simply bends itself instead of pressing the switch below!
- The oversized Delete and Escape keys: Well, I may get used to them, but why? There is a large Backspace key (at least on a german layout).
- The stands which lift the keyboard up flip back into a closed position if you push the keyboard upwards on your desk.
- As noted by other peoples: This keyboard seems to “eat” keystrokes.
But aside from these mostly technical problems, you did a great design. The stands at the back hold the keyboard well in place.
BTW, I also support the removal of the Windows+Menu keys to (re-)enlarge the Ctrl and Alt keys.
April 3rd, 2010 1:46 am
Why don’t you make it so you can just pop the keyboard out of your laptop and then plug it into your desktop, or whatever. Have an internal USB kinda like the skylight, and then the keyboard pops right out and you plug it in somewhere else.
April 20th, 2010 6:40 pm
I love the type feel of the old ibm travelmate keyboard and was thrilled to see it updated. However how can this plastic wired keyboard cost virtually the same as the Apple solid aluminum bluetooth wireless keyboard ?
April 27th, 2010 2:12 pm
when are you going to fix the input lag/ sticky shift issue, anyway?
don’t use blogs to pretend you interact with your users when you’re mostly boasting about your design.
listen to our complaints and fix the issues.
May 12th, 2010 8:16 pm
I want:
1. wireless
2. num key pad
3. windows keys
4. keep the lenovo quality!
May 23rd, 2010 3:16 pm
I have always thought that the issue with the sticky shift keys would rather be hardware/firmware related, and not driver related.
Months have gone now, and Lenovo is still dead-silent about this issue. If this really was a driver problem, things would have been sorted out by now.
OK, so you designed a nice keyboard after listening to your customers, but it now shows that a major flaw has slipped through in the shipped product.
I gave up using the keyboard after a week of annoyance and have since given it away. What are you going to do?
Although in a category by itself, Toyota at least calls back their flawed products for free fixing.
May 31st, 2010 1:27 pm
So here is my new experience with the usb keyboard. Mr. Hill certainly remember my first negative experience a few month ago. Btw. now I am writing this note on the usb trackpoint keyboard.
What I like :
+ silent
+ weight (very light)
+ very solid (does not twist and so on)
What I do not like :
- HUGE DELETE KEY (but thank to Lenovo now I am learning to use CTRL+C and CTRL+V so I am prepared to use also another notebooks
))
- the terrible light informing about speaker mute. It is really stupid. I am used working in dim light and this light really distract me (in airplane it could also annoy other poeple etc.). I solved it by minimizing the sound level to the zero ….
- the design of keyboard “mouse” buttons is again worse than original IBM. It is not possible to dafely recognize if I am with my finger on the left button. I found that the surface is another than the surface of great part of keyborad so it helps but old good ibm more curved design surely helped to find mouse buttons without looking on the keyboard.
Resume :
I think Mr. Hill is good man but during his design decision he has forgotten on tha main thing and it is “How to use the keyboard withou looking on it !”
I believe the next version solve this problem.
June 14th, 2010 4:06 pm
[...] beginning that it wasn’t planning on actually making the phone. And using crowdsourcing to design products certainly isn’t [...]
June 14th, 2010 4:33 pm
[...] beginning that it wasn’t planning on actually making the phone. And using crowdsourcing to design products certainly isn’t [...]
June 14th, 2010 4:52 pm
[...] the beginning that it wasn't planning on actually making the phone. And using crowdsourcing to design products certainly isn't [...]
July 2nd, 2010 2:18 pm
Definitely need wireless, love using trackpoint.
Would buy it to control my HTPC.
July 4th, 2010 2:35 pm
I know many said this before, but: Is there any possibility that this will also be released as a wireless version? That would be a dream come true, personally, I’d pay much more for such a version.
I think many people wanted the new keyboard to be cheaper not because the old one was too expensive in and of itself, but rather too expensive for what it did: they tactile feeling was lousy. But if that would not have been the case, i suppose many people would have paid the price.
July 5th, 2010 12:19 pm
Would by this for my HTPC in an instant if it were wireless.
July 19th, 2010 2:35 am
Make a version that:
- Is non-ThinkPad-ish, i.e. no Fn key.
- Have booth trackpoint and touchpad.
I’m a T61p user and love the touchpad, as much as I hate the Fn key location. A lot of people buy this keyboard for ergonomical reasons. Therefore multiple pointing devices to alternate between would make sense. I also think you would attract many non-ThinkPad users with a generic version. I’m about to become a non-ThinkPad user myself (new job). I considered the old UltraNav version but it’s nowhere to be found (at least not with Swedish layout). I will instead bring a SpaceSaver II + an external touchpad to my new working place.
August 30th, 2010 10:43 am
Noooooo!! why isn’t wireless…