IPS Displays
I’ve read all of your comments, and together they pretty much tell the entire story. At Lenovo we love IPS display technology. I still fondly remember the ThinkPad A30p, which I believe was our first ThinkPad to have an IPS panel. It was beautiful, and as a photographer, I could appreciate the wider viewing angle and vibrant, accurate colors. To this day I won’t do any photo editing on my laptop because, frankly, every laptop display panel choice is equally pitiful for this task.
We can blame the explosion in high definition TVs as a primary reason for the demise of the IPS panel for notebook displays. High resolution IPS panels are expensive, low-yield SKUs for LCD glass manufacturers. Not many wanted to make them in notebook sizes of 14 or 15 inches when they could make more money selling 40 or 50 inches at a time to TV vendors. We stopped offering this technology because we could not procure a reliable supply.
That last statement sounds so disingenuous coming from Lenovo, doesn’t it? The non-China side of the business has never been good at supply. We make great products, but getting them to market has been our biggest problem. The X60 Tablet supply thread has been this blog’s most popular thread — and not for good reason.
As much as the conspiracy theorists would like to prove otherwise, we don’t want to introduce a product we can’t deliver. When we qualify components, we try to multiple source everything so that when one supplier is having their own supply/quality issues, we can switch over without impacting our delivery schedules. Display technology is tricky as there are many fewer quality vendors supplying panels than for just about any other piece part in a notebook.
There was only one supplier of IPS panels that was able to produce to our quality specifications. However, that supplier was unable to consistently deliver. We were not meeting the demand and were falling farther and farther behind. Thus we had to drop it. Incidentally, this same situation explains a lot of the X60 Tablet SXGA+ supply problem as well. 12 inch SXGA+ panels are pretty hard to come by.
I know a lot of you want to know about whether high resolution displays will be available on the next generation of products. Unfortunately I can’t comment on unannounced product, but I can say that we are committed to offering high-resolution, high-quality choices for our customers. We’re also looking at LED backlighting technology as well, but that has its own issues to solve. I’ll save a post on that for another time.
As a final note, we’re also working VERY hard to improve supply in general. I could tell you that we’re consolidating 43 separate systems into one SAP system, moving away from machine type-models into true configure to order, and in parallel running a thousand other supply-related projects. But as a customer you don’t care about our problems. You just want your order to show up when promised. I don’t blame you. I feel the same way.
April 7th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
Matt, thank you for sharing w/ us why Lenovo decided to drop IPS screens.
I worked on a 15″ IPS screen (T42) myself for over two years, and just recently I decided to switch to a 15.4″ wide-screen manufactured by LG (T60). And surprisingly, despite the fact that I was a strong dependent of IPS technology, I wouldn’t want to go back today. The LG screen is lovely, and it’s definitely brighter and whiter than what I experienced before. Sure it has the usual problems with colors going wrong when you look on it from a weird angle, but seriously, I believe this is only a problem for very few people.
Best,
Alex
April 7th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
[...] In an article addressing IPS displays, Lenovo’s Matt Kohut breaks the silence regarding their general problems with supply. Matt comments, “We make great products, but getting them to market has been our biggest problem. The X60 Tablet supply thread has been this blog’s most popular thread — and not for good reason. “ A quick read in the Lenovo forum will certainly backup that statement from a consumer standpoint, so it is good to finally hear those words coming out of Lenovo. Strictly speaking from a Tablet PC perspective, this has been a thorn in Lenovo’s side since introducing the X41 several years ago and it has done nothing but hurt their reputation. [...]
April 7th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
Great information, Matt. We appreciate you commenting on the elephant in the room. It certainly has been as issue that has frustrated many would be Tablet PC owners, and it is good to hear that Lenovo is actively doing something about the supply issue and is addressing it publicly.
Thanks for the good blog.
Rob Bushway
GottaBeMobile.com
April 7th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Thank’s for clarification and naming the reasons Matt. As I can see, the reasons you named, are pretty much identical to my own LCD notebook panel market forecasts.
Let’s hope, that there will be still some other -higher quality- matte TFT notebook panel supplier options available for future Thinkpad models.
April 7th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
I have a still under warranty T60 with an IPS display. Since new, the display has had an issue (two dark circles) that I haven’t had a chance to get repaired since I can’t be without my computer. When I finally get a chance to give this back for repair, will IBM/Lenovo be able to repair this, or am I SOL?
April 7th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Thanks from here as well. While choosing a thinkpad model last year, I was lamenting that the Flexview display was only available in a larger size than I was hoping for (15″ vs. 14″ or 12″). I kept waiting for some news about the situation or new models to appear, but eventually decided I couldn’t wait forever and went with the larger screen, which I’m quite happy with (but still wish the laptop was a bit smaller).
Thanks very much for your explanation of the situation, everything make a lot more sense now (it sounds like Lenovo is as frustrated as I was!). Here’s to hoping that the situation improves in the future.
April 7th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Matt
I just purchased a Lenovo X60 Tablet. I like the form factor very much but performance is subpar at best. The boot up time reminds me of Windows 95 machines. I can’t believe a Windows XP machine can take this long to boot up. I called Lenovo for help. They sent me 7 CDs to do a full re-image, which I did. Same problems exist. I run the IT department for a school system and we are trying to decide what Tablet to standardize on for next year- either the X60 of the Fujitsu 4215. Rob at GottaBeMobile sent me some links that recognize the problem and provide steps to “fix” the X60. I don’t feel I should have to put that much time into a new machine to just get it to work properly. Is there a quicker way to “fix” the X60?
April 7th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
Thank you very much for the clarification, Matt.
It’s sad that the best current LCD technology is being pushed out of the important laptop sector.
As speculative as any answer my be, I still would like to ask Matt a few questions:
(1) Do you see a possibility that the IPS display will return? In other words, are the difficulties of your supplier(s) to deliver temporary, or are they permanent (i.e., supplier decided to stop offering IPS panels altogether).
(2) What’s to become with the tablet sector (not just with the Thinkpad Tablets)? Because of the nature of table PC usage, they must be equipped with displays that offer true wide viewing angles, which almost always means IPS. Is the trend of limiting IPS panels to huge desktop LCDs and flatscreen TVs an actual threat to the tablet market?
April 7th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
Matt, thanks for the clarification. I understand the situation, unfortunately the gap between quality of current IPS and TN panels is huge. In such case I would expect the price of ThinkPads should drop noticeably because of it.
It is rather strange that there were various suppliers (IDTech, Hydis, LG.Philips) able to delivers such panels for last four years. As the price is going down and technology is developing, TN panels are being replaced even in low-end LCD monitor segment by MVA/PVA.
I don’t insist on IPS but I’d like to have anything better than washed TN screen with shining dead pixel(s) (don’t mention those mirror-like ones). There are numbers of cheap MVA/PVA LCD monitors on the market these days Samsung is pushing their S-PVA panels which are going to be closer to IPS. I can’t believe there is no supplier able/willing to make such panels for premium notebooks like ThinkPad. CPUs are going multicore, RAM is faster and cheaper, HDDs are having bigger capacity and low power consumption, we have wireless networks … but we will go five years back in displays ? The world is crazy
The problem is not the color representation only for editing photos (AFAIK those notebook IPS panels were 6-bit only anyway) but overall “look” quality considering viewing angles, backlight uniformity, contrast, black level and (this should be repeated over and over) different dead pixel behavior. It is simple non-pleasant to look on TN display, especially when you have something better to compare it side by side.
I hope you will manage to bring a solution in the near future to keep ThinkPads the best notebooks ever.
April 7th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
A very honest post, Matt and hight appreciated.
IBM’s matte displays are one of the nicest LCDs I have seen on laptops, and amidst these matte ones, Flexview was the king of kings. Believe me, there are thousands of people (including me) who’d sell their 15″ flexview thinkpads if they could get 14″ model with flexview. But unfortunately now, lenovo does not have even the 15″ flexview anymore, and we’ll be holding to our dear laptops for a while till we can do without (or till you guys bring out a better panel!). How are you going to handle the warranty agreements if IPS is out of manufacture – do you hold some “reserved” for warranties or something?
April 7th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
I forgot the question. You have said you can not comment future products but could you indicate
whether we can hope for anything better than TN technology in the near future ? In other words, whether the annoucement of new products will come prior last boxes of T60 FlexView disappears from shops.
Thanks.
April 7th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
For longtime Thinkpad users I think we care very much about your problems. Among the many things that have distinguished Thinkpads has been the build information and tech support info on the machines that has long been available on IBM’s website (and earlier bulletin boards) and now Lenovo’s website. Once you get used to it, the Thinkpad machine type-model has been a useful tool to identify configurations, track down drivers, locate options and upgrades, and navigate IBM/Lenovo’s website.
In another sense, I think longtime Thinkpad customers are very much interested in the internal changes because the Thinkpad brand has come represent high value in engineering, design, quality control, and customer service. The jury is still out whether Lenovo has both commitment and the ability to deliver on the commitment to carry on IBM’s legacy. (Not that IBM necessarily deserves to be showered with kudos since so much of what IBM did well came in spite of IBM rather than because of IBM.)
So if there are significant changes to these ancillary services, don’t be shy or coy about letting customers and users know.
April 7th, 2007 at 9:08 pm
Thanks for the update here Matt, but ……….
The biggest issue to me is the promise of machines that are not delivered. At some point the order fullfillment system needs to talk to the ACTUAL supply system. Once someone places an order, the expectations are set in stone for them, and they start watching for the FedEx truck. Nothing more disheartening than to be waiting on the day of delivery, then logging in and seeing it has been pushed out 3 weeks (again).
Under promise, over deliver works better every time on me!
April 7th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Richard / Sri – We keep a supply of what we call FRU parts that are meant to service in-warranty systems, and to a certain extent, out of warranty systems too. I don’t have access to the supply status of these parts to answer for certain, but it is HIGHLY likely that we have the parts to fix your notebook.
dr_st – There are other technologies that can improve viewing angles like special polarizing films, coatings, and the like. Our Tablet uses several of these technolgies today and we expect to improve in future iterations. Unfortunately I have to remain vague.
Puppy and others — I hear your points loud and clear. Fortunately our development team does as well. We have all of the technologies you mention in our labs and are evaluating them.
April 8th, 2007 at 1:40 am
“”Puppy and others — I hear your points loud and clear. Fortunately our development team does as well. We have all of the technologies you mention in our labs and are evaluating them. “”
I am glad to hear this. I will buy another new lenovo laptop as soon as they offer somthing other then a TN screen.
The issue is not so much that we *need* an IPS display, but, rather, that TN is so… well… poor. S-PVA, P-MVA, whatever…they are all much better then TN. just give us an option!
April 8th, 2007 at 2:08 am
Thanks for the clarification Matt. I am really glad to hear that you guys are evaluating different technologies in the lab, and we all are eagerly waiting what is going to come out in the future.
April 8th, 2007 at 2:49 am
[...] In an article addressing IPS displays, Lenovo’s Matt Kohut breaks the silence regarding their general problems with supply. Matt writes, “We make great products, but getting them to market has been our biggest problem. The X60 Tablet supply thread has been this blog’s most popular thread — and not for good reason. “ A quick read in the Lenovo forum will certainly backup that statement from a consumer standpoint, so it is good to finally hear those words coming out of Lenovo. Strictly speaking from a Tablet PC perspective, this has been a thorn in Lenovo’s side since introducing the X41 several years ago and it has done nothing but hurt their reputation. [...]
April 8th, 2007 at 10:51 am
Thank You! for the well written article explaining the current situation regarding IPS.
I have one on my T60 & find it a brilliant display. As a very loyal ThinkPad advocate over over 8 years, having owned every T series model, I could not be happier. As a large business owner, who deploys hundreds of ThinkPads within the company, We have enjoyed world class performance and reliability for a long time.
Best Regards
April 8th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
I would like to know if the WUXGA display that was recently discontinued on the T60p was Flexview or not. If not how does Flexview compare to WUXGA, and what if any difference was their between what Lenovo/IBM was offering in WUXGA and what Clevo, Dell, Fujitsu, etc are still offering. I am a photographer and was under the impression that the WUXGA screens offered the best color and contrast in laptops. If everyone else is offering WUXGA why isn’t Lenovo/IBM? Thanks…
April 8th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
F Johnson: WUXGA is just acronym for resolution 1920×1200 pixels. It does not say anything about the quality (and technology) of the panel. The best notebook screen with WUXGA resolution I’ve seen was Sony Vaio VGN-BX197XP. I’ve doubts it was a TN panel.
As for TN panels, is there any chance that 14″ ThinkPad SXGA+ panels will improve ? I compared various TN notebook displays (Acer, Fujitsu-Siemens, HP/Compaq, low-ends like Prestigio …). These used in 14″ T series were nearly the worst. Especially regarding lack of contrast (everything looked rather white only), very poor viewing angles and blue color hue. I don’t compare it with IPS here, just among other TN panels.
April 8th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
I am currently about to purchase a T60p. I was intending to purchase directly from Lenovo. I am also greatly dissappointed in this decision to no longer offer beautiful displays. This is simply the very thing that I and everyone feared coming to pass.
Lenovo is not IBM. I predict that this decision will also be the demise of my beloved Thinkpad as the only choice for me for mobile computing. I certainly can understand all of the “logic” behind the saying that we could not get supply and demand was not there. All this is really saying is that the money was not there. Thus the death of the best laptop ever made.
My question is: will I be able to purchase a Thinkpad from Lenovo with a display that comes close to IPS in viewing quality?
Bing0
April 8th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Puppy said: “I understand the situation, unfortunately the gap between quality of current IPS and TN panels is huge. In such case I would expect the price of ThinkPads should drop noticeably because of it.”
IPS was only affecting the price of a small percentage of T-series laptops. The prices of those aren’t dropping; they’re disappearing. We’re left with the other options that always existed. IPS seemed to add around $150 to a machine, though it sometimes forced you into a higher model and therefore to pay for goodies you didn’t necessarily need. It also frequently delayed your order, which is one of the problems Matt is referring to.
April 8th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Matt, I’m sure you know that there will be a very small but very real sales impact from dropping the IPS screens. As someone who does a lot of graphical work and prefers to use my laptop directly for as much work as possible, I have been very fond of these displays and have used them for the past 2-3 years. I recently had to pick out a laptop for a new web designer at my work and I ended up snagging an IPS T60 off eBay rather than purchase a different model new from the Lenovo website. A few are actually still available if people call in and our sales rep said he could get me one, but just having them off the website was enough to lose this particular sale.
However, I completely understand the reasoning and that Lenovo is doing the best it can. It sounds like a major commitment has been made to clean up the supply chain.
April 8th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
I just recently purchased my first laptop, a T60 with the IPS screen, after many years of building my own desktops. The T60 is great for many reasons but as an amateur photographer the IPS screen is probably the most important of these. I have not seen anything else that comes close on a notebook computer and consider myself lucky to have snagged one before they vanished. This laptop is worth more to me now than when I purchased it because of it.
I am eager to see what new technologies Lenovo brings to the table in terms of displays. I would love to see an ultralight with a higher resolution LED backlit screen. Could you Be more specific about the difficulties particular to LED backlights?
April 8th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
I will withdraw my decision to purchase a Thinkpad if the monitor is of a the lower quality and I will be sadly correct in my initial thought that Lenovo’s acquisiton of Thinkpad from IBM would be the end of this awesome machine.
April 8th, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Bing0: yeah, it’s all Lenovo’s fault that few *other* people don’t make IPS screens up to standard… that’s it exactly…
April 9th, 2007 at 1:19 am
z I am confused by your sarcasm:
There may be many reasons why Lenovo is not to blame.
I wll gladly admit that I am not happy and not completely objective in my disenchantment as well.
But:
For a pc manufacturer with the volume and mammoth influence on the market that Lenovo most definitely must have to say we just couldn’t find any manufacturers,
smells like a cop out and a free pass to greater revenues.
Give me a break, just because Lenovo builds a case that seems reasonable DOES NOT mean that I am just going to buy it.
I admit that this could very well be true and not at all something that Lenovo could have done anything about.
But it just smells funny to me.
April 9th, 2007 at 1:33 am
I think it’s a bit disingenuous for you to blame Lenovo for what they claim is the supply problems from *another* manufacturer and the quality of IPS panels from *other* manufacturers for which they have no real control over. If you have a problem with not having an IPS panel, fine, but I think your blame is misplaced.
If this claim is somehow provably dodgy, then fine — you may be justified, though I don’t really see why Lenovo has to lie to consumers on this. How does not providing higher quality and probably more expensive IPS panels mean greater revenues for Lenovo when you are presumably getting a cheaper panel?
April 9th, 2007 at 1:48 am
It is called supply and demand. The panels are definitely available.
What Lenovo is not saying is that the law of economics dictates not that they were just magically not for sale. They are saying that the price is too high and therefore they are not buying them. They will not pass all of this “savings” on to the consumers. They will charge what the market will bear and that is all there is to that. This is something Dell would do and I do not buy Dell notebooks either.
You don’t really see why Lenovo has to lie to consumers on this?
If the truth is were: “we would be offering IPS displays except we want to make more money”. Then would you see why they would want to spin this in their favor.
right now I am watching a 46″ LCD Display. It is not IPS but it seems like it might be.
If I wanted to purchase 10 million 15″ displays next month for the second quarter of this year, do you seriously think that I would not be able to find a manufacturer who would build them for me if I were willing to pay a little bit more for them?
Just think a little please…If nothing else, this post is solid enough to be a proof for the hypothesis that we obviously do not have all the facts here.
April 9th, 2007 at 2:22 am
No, they are saying that “There was only one supplier of IPS panels that was able to produce to our quality specifications”, and that this supplier “was unable to consistently deliver.”
Overall, “We stopped offering this technology because we could not procure a reliable supply.”
I think that’s about as clear as you can get. Throwing more money at a supplier is not necessarily going to make them more reliable. In the end, you either stick with a supplier who is going to screw you around every time or you make a business decision and please your customers and get them the product when they need it.
Just read a little please. If you don’t want to believe what Matt or Lenovo says, then that’s your prerogative.
April 9th, 2007 at 5:05 am
In former IBM times IDTech (a merger between the Chi Mei group and IBM Japan) was the main supplier for Thinkpad IPS TFT panels (aka FlexViews in SXGA+ und UXGA resolutions). But AFAIK IDTech some years before sold a bunch of their panel fabs to Sony and so no longer works in the notebook panel business.
Afterwards LG-Philips and Boe-Hydis jumped in into the production of 15″ 4:3 aspect ratio IPS notebook panels and thus have been the suppliers for Thinkpad FlexView and the TabletPC IPS panels. Actually it’s uncertain (at least to me) if LG is still producing and offering 4:3 15″ SXGA+ IPS panels, but it looks as if hey abandoned the production of notebook IPS panels. Boe-Hydis at the end of last year, had massiv financial problems and it’s actually also uncertain to me, if their mother concern (or some other third-party) jumped in to hold the as an investor or not.
So what’s left as a main IPS panel supplier? Well, there are of course still other TFT panel manufactors available and some of these (like Sharp, Hitachi etc.) should also have the knowledge, technology and experience in building better notebook IPS panels, but most of them nowadays are more concentrating in the lucrative and much more profitable TV LCD panel domain.
All in all I believe, it’s now and yet quite difficult to get quality IPS notebook panels in constant quantities, from some LCD panel manufactor source for reasonable pricings.
April 9th, 2007 at 5:11 am
Bing0 – I think you have missed the point entirely, yes i’m sure if they wanted 10 million of them then LCD manufacturers would be lining up to make them for Lenovo but they would then have enough panels to fit ThinkPads for the next five years so this is hardly very practical.
The point is, it is dangerous for a company to rely on just one supplier, if they take orders for a number of systems with the IPS panels and then the supplier cannot supply them for several months (as they are busy churning out large TV panels or 15″widescreens probably) there is nothing they can then do about this and it this would reflect badly on Lenovo.
Its also worth noting that high price premiums to procure the panels would not be wise either as, although IPS fans are very vocal, they are in the minority and most consumers simply don’t understand what IPS panels are and why they should pay more for them.
April 9th, 2007 at 5:48 am
Again, the problem is not whether IPS or not but to get a decent screen. Technology development does not always guarantee better results. Remember LCD monitors few years ago. If you compared them with good CRT monitor you had to admit they are simply horrible in any aspect (except weight). Fortunately today you can buy LCD monitor which can match professional CRT monitor. It is very expensive but it is *available*. The same I’d like to have with notebooks.
Unfortunately regarding notebook displays I see the opposit. Display quality is going worse every year. You don’t know how much ugly screen you would get prior buying but it is also not that easy to return a notebook in all countries. There are tons of discussions about it. The main advantage of FlexView was that you could be sure you get screen with substantial quality level because there were so few suppliers.
It is true I’m picky on displays but sometimes I can’t believe what I see. Notebook displays with lack of contrast, excessive light leakage, very poor viewing angles, color banding etc. The price does not indicate the quality at all, you are simply lost because the only option is “to try” (over and over).
This is supposed to be future of computers ? Especially where there are predictions that notebooks will oversell desktops in few years. No, thanks …
These arguments that manufacturers are focusing on big LCD TV screens has some weakness. If true, they would stop to produce LCD panels for monitors as well.
April 9th, 2007 at 6:39 am
Puppy wrote: “…These arguments that manufacturers are focusing on big LCD TV screens has some weakness. If true, they would stop to produce LCD panels for monitors as well.”
Panel manufacturers are not just focusing on *big* LCD TV screens, they offer more a wider range of LCD TV panel sizes. You can get nearly every size here, from small like let’s say 20″ up to real monster panels. There is also another trend available, namely a combination/merging of LCD monitors with direct high def video and TV capabilities. So there is and still will be also some demand for such “LCD monitor panels”.
For notebooks, the overall booming consumer notebook panel market dictates the directions here. Thus we nowadays also do see more and more glare widescreen panels supplied in notebooks of all categories than ever before. It seems that the masses and so the majority of notebook buyers, doesn’t care much about glossy/mirroring displays with uneven contrasts and bad viewing angles. And sad to say, but most of these consumer trends do also spill over into the nowadays business notebook segment, so it will definitively get harder to find notebooks with good quality none-glossy displays.
April 9th, 2007 at 7:16 am
vkyr: In other words, non-Mickey-Mouse notebooks for serious use are over. Notebooks will replace desktops in the future. Hmm … time to find another job and hobby then
April 9th, 2007 at 9:06 am
Well, I think and hope that there will be still a demand for more *real* business like notebooks on the market, with hopefully trusted none-glare displays and a better and sturdier build quality than most of this common consumer notebook crap. I can’t imagine that the whole world wide business segment is accepting cheap and none ergonomical notebooks, even parts of the nowadays business segment is also opting for more multimedia like business notebooks (with build in card readers, webcams, partly widescreen panels, more USB ports, DVI or DisplayPorts, faster WLAN and so on…).
Usually the business segment should still be prefering really mobile, failsafe and sturdier notebooks. Namely devices with good keyboards, displays and overall build quality, which fulfill their TCO requirements. Thus the sort of notebook categorie into which Thinkpads always have one of the strongest market acceptance, beside some competitor business notebooks. – So I hope, that business notebooks will not in the near future just get a sort of very expensive small niche market.
What still counts for me personal most, when looking at a specific notebook is, that it should have an outstanding good keyboard and display. The display is always very important, since I only have one pair of eyes, which shouldn’t be stressed with bad quality glossy and mirroring screens. Also the notebooks overall build quality and the offered service and support offerd for it are important facts.
However, I wonder how long this *overall glossy widescreen panel boom* will keep holding on, until most people and the industry will recognize, that extreme glossy mirroring panels aren’t really usable under certain lighting environments (outdoors and indoors) and generally in mobile devices.
April 9th, 2007 at 11:15 am
I agree that the quality of display and keyboard are the most important. That’s why I picked up ThinkPad
Although more USB ports and DVI port are usefull even for serious use while things like webcam are clearly disadvantages.
The only advantage of those glossy screen might be in a “family notebook” category because it is easier to clean them
I guess the glossy coating was a side-effect of an attempt to visually improve contrast of cheap TN panels instead get rid of this technology. Unfortunately it has worked (together with massive ads and superior “reviews”) for most people who has never seen decent display like FlexView. It looks even more stupid if you realize how much effort had been put to make CRT tubes anti-reflective. Now, where the LCD technology easily allow to have matte coating, people are going to revert it back.
The question is whether this situation has any solution. The “glossy widescreen boom” seems to be too strong. Even competitors like HP offers 15″ widescreen SXGA+ models (still matte) only and Toshiba has only one 14″ SXGA+ model.
April 9th, 2007 at 11:52 am
And I’m waiting when someone clever brings an idea that best notebook display is actually rounded. Since then, notebooks will look like a dustbin cover
April 9th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
I’am not completely sure for this, but if I remember correctly the main protagonist or precursor of the glossy panel area was Sony.
But, to be fair here I must also say, that the better Sony Vaio models also have superior glossy panels (X-black technology with two backlights or LEDs etc.) with some little anti-reflective coatings, than most of their competitors in this field. I know two or three Sony notebook models (FE- and SZ-series), which even they have glossy displays, are still good usable outsides to some degree. Their primary advantage is the much higher luminance (even it always costs some more amount of battery power) and that black and red colors etc. show up more vivid.
However, for their more business intended notebooks (BX- and G-series) Sony also uses matte displays instead.
April 9th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Given the strong fervor over the FlexView displays, I wanted to let you all know that while the option has been pulled off the web you can still call and order a ThinkPad T60 15″ SXGA+ FlexView through our phone sales reps. I can’t speak to how long these machines will continue to be available, but I did confirm that they are still in stock and available. In the U.S., the number is 1-866-96-THINK.
April 10th, 2007 at 12:10 am
It’s true. I ordered a new T60 SXGA+ IPS today, and looking forward to lovin’ it… in 2-4 weeks
April 10th, 2007 at 2:15 am
“aka FlexViews in SXGA+ und UXGA resolutions” thanks vkyr for clarifying that for me. Regarding UXGA just being a resolution designation, I am of the understanding that UXGA/WUXGA indicates the screen has two lamps as opposed to a single lamp.
Any thoughts on what Canon has been working on (in particular OLED) and how that might influence next generation laptop screens?
http://www.canon.com/technolog.....splay.html
I would hope that new technologies in the works will bring better image quality to laptops including improvements beyond ISP displays.
April 10th, 2007 at 3:49 am
I don’t see OLED ever becoming a major player – its been threatening for too long without fruition, with colour epaper now available this is something I would be more interested in as a hybrid display for more static images to conserve power; i’d really love to see a tablet with LED backlight LCD on one side and ePaper on the other.
April 10th, 2007 at 7:57 am
I’d like to add another comment related to “we don’t want to introduce a product we can’t deliver”.
Till now 100% of customers who has ordered 15″ SXGA+ or UXGA models got FlexView screen. The question is how many of them consider it as the essential feature since it is unique on notebooks market. I’d guess the number is below 5%.
As a customer who is picky on screen quality, I’d rather wait several weeks to get such niche product (being aware I’m a minority) than have no option at all. You could advertise it as “custom high-color resolution screen for professional graphics usage” to not cause the rest of people feel they are buying a crap (they actually do but why to tell them
) This wouldn’t cause delays in shipping most of configurations but satisfies those who are willing to pay extra money for premium quality product.
I’m not a businessman so such scenario might be a complete nonsense. I don’t know whether LCD manufacturers would be willing to make even smaller series of such panels (but for better price). In any case you didn’t have to had more “backup” suppliers.
Of course, I still hope you will resolve the situation better and for everyone
April 11th, 2007 at 12:50 am
This article may be of interest for those who are wondering what the possibillities are regarding LCD screens. It is two years old, but I think is still relevent to what is becoming available today, and the issue regarding the future of IPS displays.
http://www.elecdesign.com/Arti.....cleID=8788
One thing I am wondering is how much of an obsticle is power consumption in laptops to using the technologies that are allowing the higher end LCD dispalys currently available that meet the requirements of imaging professionals. Is it just the power requirements that are keeping laptop LCDs from matching the quality of high end desktop LCD monitors. Here is another article I have bookmarked regarding “professioanl” LCD monitors.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl.....itors.html
April 12th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Even power consumption is of course one big point for notebooks, it’s not the only one. There are many more aspects which do play a role for notebook LCD panels. As for example, weight, thickness, power input voltage (VLCD), color depth, display operating mode, operating temps, surface treatment, interface connections, backlights/inverter or LEDs, …and so on.
LCD panels are generally build up from many interacting parts and components themself and notebook panels have always to be thinner, lightweight, power consumption efficient etc. – Thus you can’t completely compare notebook LCDs with desktop monitor or TV LCDs, there are always some important differences between them.
April 15th, 2007 at 1:46 am
This article is only mentioning part of the issue. If you have problems with IPS displays then with some doubt users would understand that. If Lenovo wasn’t going to make profit why would it buy pc from IBM in the first place.
But did you have to fit the 14″ thinkpad with the worst display you can possibly find? I bought a 14″ to replace my 15″ t43p. Everything about it was great, the speed, quality etc. But I just could not stand the complete luck of any viewing angle (especially vertical), blurriness, too much white etc. The laptop is counterproductive despite all the original ergonomics, especially if you work on it the whole day. I sold it a month later and couldn’t be happier with t43p again. It is much slower in comparison, but I can get more work done and don’t get frustrated, which is what counts for me.
To make matters worse there is nothing Lenovo can offer that I would want to buy. Luck of 15″ IPS panels is half a problem, but there aren’t any high resolution screens either from Lenovo. Not even for the hideous widescreen t60, while available for direct competitors like hp nw8440.
I don’t know what the real reason for this is, but todays thinkpads are coming out with some of the worst screens available (14″, haven’t seen the 15″ screen), weak graphics and a windows keys.
April 15th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
gar I agree about 14″ screen. They are definitely sub-average comparing to other current TN notebook screens. Although I see another reason – no suppliers. Currently there are three suppliers of 14″ SXGA+ panels for ThinkPads. But I have found only one other notebook with 14″ SXGA+ screen – Toshiba M5. It means such resolution is becoming rare with the raise of widescreen epidemy.
To sumarize all problems:
- non TN screens (former IPS FlexView) are no longer available
- current 14″ SXGA+ screens are sub-average comparing to competitive TN screens. It does not match quality and premium price of ThinkPad
- 15″ SXGA+ resolution for T61 will not be available
- 15″ WSXGA+ T60 screens has two suppliers (LG and Samsung). From resposes in forums the LG screen is better. Unfortunately you can’t tell which type do you want so you have to order online and speculate with serial numbers (to discover the manufacturer). The reliability of getting as much as possible quality product has gone.
- UXGA (or WUXGA) resolution for T series is no longer available
And some non-screen related problems:
- ThinkPad Protection service is not available worldwide
- it is impossible to get a ThinkPad with English (US) Windows in non-English speaking countries
- only prebuilt configurations are available in some countries
As for keyboards:
- Czech keyboard has a useless key between left Shift and Z key so the Shift key is shorter. I don’t know who has designed it such but it really sucks … sorry.
- There might be optional layout without Windows keys and exchanged Ctrl and Fn keys (so the Ctrl is on the left).
April 15th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
It looks like LED LCD screens are going to be what is setting the new standard on laptop displays. So will these LED screens on balance improve on the display quality offered by Flexview, and will they achieve color accuracy that meets the requirements of imaging professionals? It seems to me quite a coincidence that Flexview is being dropped right before LED screens are about to be released in the new top of the line laptops (.i.e. from Apple and HP (http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20070103PD210.html), and therefore I assume Lenovo/Thinkpad and the rest). Below is a link to a white paper from Cree who is mentioned as a likely participant in the production of these new LED screens. In the article I posted above on professional monitors, in addition to the differences in the type of backlighting, they also discuss the matrix type IPS vs. MVA PVA. It would seem the best combination would be LED with IPS. Also Cree’s “Colorwave” technology uses RGB LED’s as opposed to white LED’s which should greatly increase display quality and accuracy as well. I do not know which of these things is going to wind up in the first generation LED laptop screens, but the Colorwave screen technology sounds really nice and applicable to laptop screens. By the way Cree is located in Raleigh Durham, NC so one would hope that the folks at Lenovo and Cree are aware of each others shared interests.
“Backlighting Revolution White Paper”:
http://www.cree.com/products/p....._Paper.pdf
April 16th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
F Johnson: “Regarding UXGA just being a resolution designation, I am of the understanding that UXGA/WUXGA indicates the screen has two lamps as opposed to a single lamp.”
As mentioned before, designations such as UXGA and WUXGA refer to the number of pixels and nothing else: not physical size, not display technology, not illumination.
Matt: “I still fondly remember the ThinkPad A30p, which I believe was our first ThinkPad to have an IPS panel.”
Indeed it was. I don’t just fondly remember the A30p, I have a whole fleet of them here at home. I used one for my main work computers until I got a T60p with UXGA IPS last year. I still use the A30p as a second machine, and I bought used ones for my wife and kids.
My current setup: T60p (IPS), A30p (IPS), X41 Tablet (I guess it’s not IPS but it looks good anyway), and a Mac Mini with an NEC LCD2070NX (yes, IPS!) display and an IBM/Lenovo USB TrackPoint keyboard.
April 16th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
LCDs with LED based backlight are ~ three times as expensive as conventional CCFL/EEFL/FFL* light sources. For a 32″ W 1366×768 TFT TV LCD you would need as lamps/light sources…
- CCFL: x 16 = ~ $26
- EEFL: x 20 = ~ $32
- LED: x 150 = ~$270
…the prices of a diffusion board + sheet, reflective sheet, (dual)brightness enhancement film, metal bezel etc. would be identical here, but the prices for other used key materials are still more expensive for LED based LCDs. – So all in all the total costs for LED based LCDs are mostly 2-3 times higher than those for LCDs with conventional backlights.
The pros for LED based notebook backlights are:
- thin and light backlight
- no inverter
- mercury free
- thin bezel
- lower power consumption
- color gamut
- life time
the cons are:
- cost
- constrained to more high end and thus expensive products
- color uniformity
- brightness efficiency
- complex supply statusand control circuit
BTW, the Sony Vaio TX uses a 240 nits 11.1″ WXGA+ from TMDS with 40 LEDs. The Fujitsu T70 has a 170 nits 10.6″ WXGA from Samsung with 20 LEDs and the Toshiba Libretto U10 a 220 nits Sharp 7.2″ WXGA panel with 12 LEDs. – However, all of those subnotebooks are expensive and use smaller sized LCD panels. Nowadays you will find some 12″-13″ notebooks with LED based LCDs (Sony Vaio G11 etc.) but usually no notebooks with bigger sized LCD panels. Further, most of the LED based notebook models are always the most expensive ones from the individual model line or series.
Maybe you should also read some articles about the complexity and costs involved by producing LED based LCDs, in order to get an idea, why there aren’t so much notebook models with LED based LCDs on the market yet.
April 17th, 2007 at 1:16 am
vkr it would seem based on the information in the articles I have provdided links to that some of the issues you raise as cons are being addressed in particular color uniformity and brightness efficiency. The White Paper from Cree leaves the impression that their technology will significantly reduce costs and complexity further. Also mentioned in the White Paper:
“Market researcher Strategies Unlimited describes the use of “high-power LEDs in RGB combinations for backlighting larger (15+ inches) stand-alone LCD monitors and LCD TVs” as “an emerging application with very large market potential … projected to grow from $11 million in 2005 to $1.164 billion in 2009, corresponding to a capital annual growth rate of 222 percent. “
If that turns out to be the case costs will be coming down, but to your point high end color accurate 20 inch LED monitors run right around $2,000 right now. Like anything when something is first introduced it is going to cost more, and by the way there is a premium charged for Flexview too. Also if I have a choice between buying a laptop with a high performance screen or one without and having to buy a second stand alone monitor, I would prefer having it come with the laptop. I have taken a look at the Sony G11 since it is one of the newest with an LED screen, and it is not what I was hoping for. I went down to Best Buy which still has T60 Flexview models available and on display where I live, and was able to look at both of them. The Flexview did seem to maintain more consistency in the image if you changed your viewing angle or slightly moved the screen. I also like the matte screen that was on the T60. However that is a Sony and may or may not be representative of what HP and Apple will be introducing shortly. I would also hope that the possibillity exists that Lenovo will come out with an LED version of Flexview or that something based on the Colorview or similair technology will make it into notebooks sooner rather than later.
April 17th, 2007 at 1:28 am
Correction I blelive the Sony with the LED screen I was refering to was the TX Series.
April 17th, 2007 at 6:23 am
The Sony G11 (which is pretty new on the market) uses a matte 12″ LED based panel and the Sony SZ-series a 13,3″ LED based panel, *but only the expensive top model* of the SZ-series here. – However, LEDs are just playing a role as lighting sources/backlights and thus don’t affect the usual other viewing attributes of LCD TFT panels, like viewing angles based polarizers, color filters and so on. So related to LED based backlight units components just the LEDs, light guide plate raw materials, diffusers, reflectors etc. do play a role.
Of course there are a bunch of plain LED component makers on the market, namely…
- Arima Optoelectronics, Epistar, Everlight, Tekcore, Lumileds, Lite-On, LEDTech, Rohm, Samsung, Toyoda Gosei Nichia, New Seada, Solid Guide, Taiwan Oasis, Osram, Stanley, LG, Toshiba, Agilent, Unity Opto etc.
…and there are also a bunch of complete backlight unit makers from Japan, Taiwan and Korea.
Related to future Thinkpad TFT panels, I somehow doubt that these will be then of some higher IPS like quality. So far most (the majority of) Thinkpad panels have always been of poor quality and only a few certain Thinkpad model models had slightly better (IPS FlexViews, 12″ TabletPC) or more luminant (MaxBright, Ultralight) panels assembled. – However, we have to wait and see…
April 17th, 2007 at 6:53 am
Re: moving away from machine type-models into true configure to order
What’s going on with Lenovo Australia? It seems that the choice that the consumer has to purchase a laptop is diminishing (just yesterday I saw a particular model of X60 on the website, and today it was gone), but we’ve no other option to exercise choice.
I’d be happy with machine-type models or custom-to-order, but it seems like Lenovo Australia are providing neither?
April 17th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
“Richard / Sri – We keep a supply of what we call FRU parts that are meant to service in-warranty systems, and to a certain extent, out of warranty systems too. I don’t have access to the supply status of these parts to answer for certain, but it is HIGHLY likely that we have the parts to fix your notebook.”
My experience has left me somewhat skeptical. I sent in an SXGA+ X60 tablet for warranty repair at the beginning of April, and got it back with an XGA screen. A couple weeks later, a week of the laptop sitting at the repair center, several phone calls, and I still haven’t talked to anyone who is aware that this model was sold with more than one type of screen. I don’t know whether the problem is part availability, or miscommunication between Lenovo and the repair people, or just a few confused technicians.
But in any case, combined with the original 2-month-plus shipping delay, this has been rather a frustrating experience–it could be a nice machine, but I haven’t actually had the chance to use it much yet!
April 19th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Okay okay I take it back! You guys are right, I’m a total moron. When I said buy 10 million panels, I wasn’t really thinking that you’d need 10 million people to buy them!!!
That makes sense though, I love Lenovo and will always buy it. I withdraw everything I said previously, and again I’m an idiot.
April 20th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
This is really a sad story. I recently bought a new T60p and so far the screen is the most disappointing part. Don’t get me wrong, I am not a fanboy of glossy screens. All I want is a screen that is bright and sports a wide-viewing angel. I think that is really the sport where the thinkpads left behind.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:41 pm
hi all,
i have a A31p with flexview UXGA 15″ working now 5 years – i’m molecular biology student and photographer and this was the only display (and machine) that suited me. great IPS flexview helped me screen over more than 150k pictures and write lots of text without bothering about eyes hurting or colour mess.
unfortunately, the display lamp flickered two weeks ago and died last week. the laptop is not longer under guarantee and i’m now bound to the external screen (a good DELL UXGA, better in brightness but in colour and details worlds from the 15″UXGA-IPS, although it is 3 years newer).
to my horror, i realised just now, that nor ibm nor lenovo sells good laptops any more. sure the CPUs developed, the memory got cheaper and some inside-changes happened and luckily thinkpad build quality stayed the same (similar). the horror was going to the only shop in switzerland, that has thinkpads to see and realising, that the displays (from x60 (worst) through the whole palette to T60p new (no IPS) – the best was XGA-x60t) are clearly brighter than the older ones, but that the quality of the picture (saturation, contrast, angle-view, …) is almost the level it was in 1998 on the old Compaq Armada P2 i still have. actually, the old compaq has a better quality screen.
i’m now not knowing what to do. the XGA x60t is not 64bit (core duo instead of core2duo) and the tablet mechanism seems less firm and less robust than the normal thinkpad A/T/X i’m used to. no others offer a display you would screen photos if it matters on every shadow and colour correctness. very disappointing. i started looking in direction of toshiba, as thinkpad is nothing special any more… sure the build quality and keyboard rocks, but the world is visual
i’m very grateful to find this statement from this lenovo person. at least i know where the problem lies in.
a free suggestion to lenovo about the situation: the way i understand the market, if i would be lenovo, i would buy the supplyer of IPS’, help them cleaning their bottlenecks and make them produce high-resolution screens for less money to be put in all thinkpads. guaranting the supply and making lenovo being the only company having IPS. this would
1) bring more dynamics on the market (good for customers),
2) offer IPS screens for less money on thinkpads making thinkpads selling better and
3) start the century of high-resolution computing.
i just cannot hear the stupid statements, that a SXGA on 12″ is “too small to read” or other statements that show that the reviewer is either using an very old OS or does not know how to set the DPI in the Xorg
SXGA on 12″ is the least you would expect in 2007 to be a 12″ screen. UXGA for 12″ would be a step in the right direction (think about not seeing pixels any more!).
greetings from switzerland,
Damir
April 25th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Damir,
I cannot agree with the SXGA+ on 12″: I have good commercial pilot eyes and still find SXGA+ on 14″ screen too small to read for an extended period of time (10+hours x 6-7days per week)
However, I do agree with you that Lenovo, although has maintained the build quality of Thinkpad, they have made compromises: they layoff people, and they do not have their own academic-status R&D departments. They do things according to the supply market: they get cheaper and abundant screens (TN screens over IPS, 16:10 over 4:3), modify their build materials (rubber vs non-rubber-feel plastics). Lenovo cannot, and their mother company dare not, take your suggestion of buying out the IPS suppliers and run it by themselves. This is the difference in Philips, Sony, or Samsung. With the current business model, Lenovo is going the Dell & HP ways: it is good for sales but it is hard to make a real difference on computing world, i.e. Lenovo will never be able to become the PC world’s IBM without good hardcore independent R&Ds and manufacturing partnerships backing up
I hope Lenovo can note that: please don’t go towards the traditional Chinese way of mercenary business philosophy — they make big money but they produce quality only decent enough to maintain sales. Please strike a balance between practicality and the eager to truly aspire, we all want Lenovo to aspire
April 26th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
I don’t understand all this Flexview talk. Is this or not just a fancy buzz-word for IPS, or is there some distinction here? Apple, HP, Dell have IPS/WVA panels in various mid-to-high end notebooks (the HP NC6320 comes with what seems to be the 1400×1050 “Flexview” display, with matching specs indicating an identical/similar panel to what’s in the 15″ Flexview T60s). If these other companies can find enough supply of these then surely Lenovo can as well.
Could someone please explain the distinction (if there is one) between Flexview/IPS and the panels already offered (in volume) on notebooks like the HP NWs and Macbook Pro? Until then, I am assuming this is a Lenovo specific supply problem, not a consumer problem, who can find the same technology in other, more widely available, cheaper systems.
April 26th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
FlexView was a brand name of Lenovo/IBM used for IPS panels. To my (and other people as well) knowledge there are currently *no* other notebooks having anything else but horrible TN panels. The WVA acronym is used for TN panels with slightly improved horizontal (only) viewing angles. Macbook Pro has also TN only.
April 27th, 2007 at 6:37 am
Thanks for the clarification. I’ve seen a Macbook (definately TN+) and Macbook Pro display side by side and there is a significant difference. In fact the quality on the Macbook Pro subjectively exceeded the quality of my 20″ TN+ desktop panel, and had very good vertical view angle (no color shift/gradients that are obvious on TN panels) -so I would be obliged to think it is an IPS panel or a *VERY* good TN panel. I am also inclined to the thinking that the Dell notebook panels marked “Ultrasharp” – e.g. the 1400×900 option available on the Insprion 6400 or 1920×1200 option on the XPS 17″ models, are also of the IPS type. In that regard *my* assumption is that the moderately higher viewing angles (100-120-deg as opposed to 50-70 on TN+ or 170+ on *S*IPS/SPVA) indicate an IPS notebook panel. LG’s website also has specifications for Notebook IPS panels with details correlatingwith what Dell/Apple/HP etc already offer. Please let me know if this understanding is incorrect, and if so, I would be grateful if you can provide a source confirming that information. The only viable possibility I see here is where Lenovo have used the Flexview term for *S*IPS notebook panels (if those ever existed before LCDTVs got big), which, actually would be a distinctive plus.
April 27th, 2007 at 9:15 am
Higher viewing angle numbers on TN panels are tricky. The TN panel might look better from 120deg angle than 45deg so it is not smooth. As for color representation, any TN panel can never get the same quality as current x-IPS. There are TN panels with less visible banding but colors still get distorted by changing viewing angles and are always dithered. Another problem of TN is the dead pixel behavior which is very distrurbing.
Still, I don’t believe there are currently any notebook IPS panels, at least in size up to 15″. 17″ Sony Vaio have also displays which looks very good but it is still glossy TN panel. LG.Philips is main vendor of cosumer oriented IPS panels and the only 15″ model used in T60 has disappeared few months ago from their web site.
May 3rd, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Just to follow up on a previous comment; the time line for my laptop repair x60 tablet screen repair ended up being:
Saturday, March 31st: complained about distortion rendering the screen unusable
Tuesday, April 3rd: got the RMA box, sent it in the next day
Friday, April 6th: got the laptop back with the SXGA+ screen replaced by an XGA screen. The next day I was told there was no information about SXGA+ screens for this laptop, but it was agreed I could send it back anyway.
Tuesday, April 10th: got the RMA box, returned it.
Wednesday, April 11th: technician left a phone message saying they needed more information. On calling back, I was read a note that claiming this laptop only had one kind of screen, so they didn’t know what to do. Called back several times over the next week, got the same answer every time.
Tuesday, April 17th: got forwarded to a technician who agreed to look into the problem and call me back. They never did, but the person who answered the phone the next day said there was a part on order.
Wednesday, April 25th: I called again, was told the part should arrive by Friday or Monday.
Thursday, May 3rd: laptop arrived with a working SXGA+ screen. The head of one of the case screws is stripped completely smooth, so I don’t know what I’ll do if I ever need to open the thing up.
So anyway, the SXGA+ panel supply problems don’t appear to be figured out yet. And the lack of coordination with the repair folks (why don’t they know about this stuff?) is disappointing.
May 4th, 2007 at 9:22 am
I do think there is an opportunity for lenovo to purchase a mid-major panel manufacturer and create the displays they need for their own machines. Capital is cheap right now and this would really pay off in the long run. With LCD TVs taking a large percentage of manufacturing resources, the opportunity exists for top quality under 17″ panel makers to make money. Laptop screens aren’t likely to get any larger than 15.4″ so this market will always exist.
May 10th, 2007 at 7:40 am
T60 with IPS displays have appeared again in Lenovo US online shop.
May 20th, 2007 at 1:03 am
I recently purchased a T60 with a 15″ ips display and it is definately a superior panel IMO. There is no doubt that ips screens are very much in demand. Could you produce these notebooks on a special order only, with a “?” wk. waiting period? Is there any chance of an OLED screen in the near future?
July 11th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
[...] The Lenovo Thinkpad T61p has just been announced. It has the option of a WUXGA (1920×1200) screen, and comes with UWB, the successor to Bluetooth, which allows for 100 megabit transfer speeds… meaning the possibility of wireless port replicators. Imagine hooking up the laptop with your desktop keyboard and monitor, wirelessly. That’s cool. I think that the WUXGA screen is an IPS screen still, but don’t count on future models having IPS displays. [...]
March 12th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
You can see in post 5 the problem with my flexview screen. I just called warranty service because my headphone jack broke, and so I mentioned my screen issues too. I was told that such a problem would not be covered by warranty. Anybody from Lenovo have any thoughts on this?
June 9th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Please bring S-IPS FlexView back. I purchased a used system off eBay because of this…
June 27th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
I’m holding back any further purchase of a new Thinkpads unless there will be a LCD offered,
that is comparable or better than 15.0 UXGA Flexview.
July 27th, 2008 at 12:43 am
Still, to this day, nothing beats an IPS LCD, be it on a 12″ tablet or a 15″ workstation. Perfect it’s not, but light years ahead of current LED-backlit displays (judged by one on X300) let alone horrific TN panels on the rest of the ThinkPad range…
I had no problem spending almost $4000 in 2002 on a brand new A31p with all bells and whistles. Throw me a T61p with the appropriate LCD and no nVidia card (ATi here only, pretty please) and I’ll be glad to max out my credit card to get it…and I’m definitely not the only one.
As lophiomys said, I’m holding back on getting a new ThinkPad because of the quality of LCD panels. I’ve sold a T61p with WUXGA screen after 10 days because the screen was simply horrible, and looked pathetic compared to any of my FlexViews…
August 12th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
I have to agree with the other posters – my 14″ T60 screen is really awful. The laptop itself is great though (looks, functionality, battery life). The screen is only barely usable for office applications.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:21 am
Yes. IPS is great. But wonder if anybody has noticed… there are no standard monitors in the Thinkpad range now. Except the low res X61. And what’s with those asymettrical, off-centre screens? Anyway, may we know why 16:10 is the only ‘choice’ if you want a laptop? 14.1 widescreen are too tiny in height. 15.4 wides don’t fit into safety vaults of most hotel rooms. And what are we supposed to do with all the wasted space on the right of the screen where no website has any content anyway. I have a 15″ T42 with IPS and was actually biding some time for the return of IPS on a T60. Turns out now — forget IPS — even the standard aspect ratio’s disappeared. For me, the widescreen is waste of space. It’s fine if people want them, but can we not be robbed of choice?
September 18th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
I’ve had only IPS Flexview Thinkpads since I got into my first one (T42p). About a year ago, I got an AFFS IPS Flexview, the best there ever was, which was produced by BOE-Hydis (now renamed Hydis), which has not only IPS, but FFS (Frag Field Shielding), and then AFFS, Advanced FFS. I was so stunned, as I can actually see the difference between AFFS and IPS.
It’s a T60p, still under warranty, and it has 15″ UXGA (1600×1200) resolution.
Now I’d like to get the W700. But I don’t think I can. They advertise 400nits, which is a joke, as it only addresses brightness.
Where, oh where, can I get another IPS panel? Ideally, another AFFS one from Hydis, but IPS, or even something close to it, will do.
I would certainly pay a big premium for this. I skipped the entire T61/p series, but the T400/T500 offer nothing better. Neither do the most expensive W500/W700 series.
I have only ever owned Thinkpads, and I don’t want to switch brands, which, I’m sure, all of you can appreciate. The question remains, are there ANY IPS, or IPS-like panels on ANY other notebook manufacturers?
I noticed Alienware has ClearView technology, but as I found out, IPS blows that out of the water.
Come on Lenovo, you can do better than this. I’ll even wait for as long as you want me to, and play around on my upgraded T60p until I get something close to as good as what I have now? Is it really a pipe dream??
Say it ain’t so. ??
September 19th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
there is even less incentive for Lenovo to use IPS now given the market condition. The release of the new X200, Txxx, Rxxx and Wxxx shows that Lenovo is very serious in streamlining its components intercompatibility between different models. I guess the relative limitied supply and higher costs of IPS do not lend itself well to any of that.
September 19th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
I will only buy IPS because of the overall viewing angle, the consistent color balance over wide viewing angles, and the flat grey-to-grey response time curve.
There are a number of factors contributing to the demise of IPS:
- The viewing angle “standard” of 10:1 constrast with no respect for color accuracy (and even this inadequate measure is regularly manipulated, such as using 5:1)
- The growing trend of not publishing the viewing angle spec (also, search engines at web retailers not including viewing angle as a selection criteria)
- The misleading focus on response time even though 12ms is all that is needed for most
- Tyranny of the majority (if 80% of people buy TN it doesn’t mean there is no market for IPS)
- Most monitor manufacturers won’t publish the panel type or manufacturer
- Inadequate marketing/branding of IPS by LG Display and others
Solutions:
- VESA publishes, promotes, and enforces a “True View Angle” spec where the angles are determined by the point at which contrast drops below 1/20th of the straight-on contrast OR the color accuracy becomes worse than 5% for any component
- VESA publishes, promotes, and enforces a “True Response Time” spec which is determined by the maximum grey-to-grey time without more than a 1% overshoot (if using RTC)
- LG Display and others push monitor manufacturers to publish the panel type and IPS branding (also true for other decent technologies like PVA and MVA) and market it
- Monitor makers that choose to target the higher-quality market do a better job of explaining the differences and reasons for paying the premium for a better display
Personally, I have resorted to using a Full-HD TV as my computer display, in part because I use my computer as my TV, but also because it is possible to find a decent deal on a TV that has been determined (or even advertised) to have an IPS panel. However, this doesn’t help with the notebook issue, and more than half of PCs sold now are notebooks, so really we need the standards. I fear we may not get good displays at a decent price until OLED and/or FED are mainstream (it could be earlier, but probably 10-20 years given the momentum of LCD?)
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:55 pm
OK, so we can’t have IPS flexview, what the second best we can have?
Which laptop has the best viewing angles out there today??
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:17 pm
alex – the next best thing would be a tablet since their displays are designed for wide viewing angles with good contrast. the X60 and X61 tablet each use AFFS displays from BOE-hydis, which in many ways can be better than IPS.
October 14th, 2008 at 11:24 am
[...] (Now I know at this point many of you are going to bemoan our lack of IPS display options for your notebooks and will use this post as a catalyst to comment further. Think of this new announcement as adding a high quality display option which we haven’t had in a long time and a step in the right direction. For those of you who don’t know what I’m referring to, here’s my earlier post on the subject.) [...]
October 22nd, 2008 at 12:09 pm
According to the Tabook, it appears that the x200 tablet DOES HAVE AN IPS SCREEN. There are 3 options available:
190 Nits, 500:1 contrast, CCFL, FFS Screen, Frameless w/ Wacom
230 Nits, 500:1 contrast, LED, IPS Screen, Touch w/ Wacom
285 Nits, 500:1 contrast, LED, IPS Screen, Frameless w/ Wacom
The downside of all of these is that they are only available in 12.1″, integrated graphics only (Intel GMA4500HD), and feature a 1280×800 resolution. However, it appears to be the only IPS option currently available, and looks like a fantastic screen (and computer in general). I already have one on order with the 285 Nit, LED, Frameless model and hope that the screen really is that fantastic.
August 10th, 2009 at 3:18 am
IPS Panels and Shadows.
Many know that dark shadows in the lower corners of some LCDs indicate the CCFL / Backlight is failing. Someone else write that shadowing in a corner with UXGA IPS panels is normal.
Is shadowing in a corner normal for IPS UXGA panels, or is it a sign CCFL / Backlight Failure is imminent?
If it is normal or could be a sign that CCFL / Backlight failure is imminent, is there a way to tell which it is?
Mike