Switch Mode for Fn/Ctrl Keys
Fn and Ctrl Keys on ThinkPad T400s
We are considering a switch mode for the Fn and Ctrl keys.
Personally, I feel that the present layout (Fn key on the left corner, followed by the Ctrl key immediately to the right) is the most convenient, but that may be because ThinkPad has been my only laptop for so many years now.
My hands are rather small, so having the Ctrl key closer without my fingers leaving the home position is really helpful, especially when doing shortcuts like “Ctrl + C” (copy) and “Ctrl + V” (paste), and having the Fn key on the left edge is less error-prone for shortcuts such as Fn + F5 (Manage wireless connections) and Fn+Home/End (Change display brightness).
I guess old habits die hard, lol.
Poll Result from Fn Versus Ctrl: Let the Games Begin
But I fully understand that there is a demand for the switch mode. This is why I am closely following the comments and poll results on Fn Versus Ctrl: Let the Games Begin and The new keyboard – A “Wow” Layout, as well as the discussions on Lenovo Forum.
There are many possible methods to make the switch available, and the most likely candidate right now is to implement the swap on the BIOS Setup Utility.
For users requesting the switch feature, please tell us what you think about this implementation.
August 6th, 2009 at 11:40
A BIOS option would be the easiest to implement for the user. Please don’t make ThinkPad users install any Windows software to use this new option. Also please retroactively offer this to all current ThinkPad models.
August 6th, 2009 at 13:31
CTRL should always hold the lower left corner.
All other keyboards whether it be from desktop or notebook, have the CTRL key for the and this has been so for the past decades.
To move CTRL from the lower left corner would be like shifting ESC key away from upper right corner and spacebar to the side.
August 6th, 2009 at 13:58
Excellent idea! I for one hate Fn on the outside, as muscle memory dictates that the CORNER key must be control. Especially useful when working regularly on multiple computers.
August 6th, 2009 at 15:29
i am a thinkpad users for many years, and i say Fn should be at the left most corner… i am use to it. Thinkpad is not like other laptops.
August 6th, 2009 at 16:01
I agree with sarlacc: Please do this independent on the running OS. So best in BIOS.
For me as an emacs (you know: EscMetaAltControlShift) addict, the ctrl key is of major importance. As i’m also very used to my Thinkpad Keyboard, i do no longer mind the placement as is, but an equal layout to my desktop keyboard is desirable. So please (as already commented in the ‘design matters’ article), move the function key away from the bottom line.
The middle mouse button would be an unusual replacement, but ok. Better for Linux users would be to couple FN to the Thinkvantage button. It just serves a purpose while startup right now.
@goldfries: Apple sells quite many notebooks with the same configuration.
August 6th, 2009 at 17:35
BIOS option for swapping would be best in my opinion. HPs have had it for ages, but i never understood why IBM/Lenovo never implemented it.
Personally, i’m used to Fn Ctrl layout.
August 6th, 2009 at 18:10
I would like to see it remain the same with the Fn key on the outside. It makes it much easier to do things automatically that require that key. But you might be right, I might just be so conditioned by now that anything else would seem weird.
August 6th, 2009 at 21:34
I think it would be awesome if you do this and it would be really great if the keys could be engineered in such a way that I can physically swap the keys and still have the Ctrl key be wider than the Fn key.
If you offered a choice between two keyboard layouts during ordering, I’d even pay extra for the “Correct” layout.
August 6th, 2009 at 21:34
Również myślę, żeby przy najbliższej okazji zrobić BIOS który umożliwi zmianę Fn z CTRL.
August 6th, 2009 at 23:10
A bios tool is preferred – that way it can work in other OSes (eg Linux). A pair of replacement keys as an accessory for a small fee (to switch them) would also be greatly appreciated.
August 6th, 2009 at 23:15
I’m already used to the Fn button on the left most corner. So this is not an issue to me. But for the sake of my friends who might borrow my thinkpad, I think it would be good for future Thinkpad models to follow the standard of having the Ctrl button on the left most corner.
August 6th, 2009 at 23:23
YES! A BIOS option for swapping Fn-Ctrl is the perfect solution for this problem.
Are there any estimates of how long it would take to implement and release such a BIOS update?
August 6th, 2009 at 23:45
As a fan of Fn Ctrl, and I’m for the BIOS switch as it would make both camps happy.
August 7th, 2009 at 00:35
Please follow a standard, and Ctrl at the corner seems to be the standard. I use an external keyboard a lot, it’s a pain having to switch from Ctrl Fn to Fn Ctrl when I use the laptop keyboard. Thank you for considering this problem. Ctrl Fn please.
August 7th, 2009 at 01:02
Please do it!
Thank you very much!
August 7th, 2009 at 02:24
I actually prefer that the Fn key be placed to the left of Ctrl on laptops, however, I still feel that for the other users who prefer it the other way there should be an option at the very least.
One thing that bothers me about it all though is that this would all be very easily solved if the Fn key produced a scancode on key down, windows (and other respective OSes) will not detect a scancode for the Fn key on key down, only once the key is released will a scancode be sent to the OS. I understand that the Fn key is a hardware key first and foremost, but I urge you to find a way to have it transmit a key down event just as any other key on the keyboard does.
With this functionality in place users could change their Fn key to act like a Ctrl key, or even change the mapping of their Fn+Key combinations to act in a different manner.
August 7th, 2009 at 03:26
I am partial to the FN, Ctrl layout myself. However, there is no harm in implementing a BIOS switch option. A business HP I used for a time had the BIOS option and I used it to switch to the ThinkPad FN, Ctrl style.
August 7th, 2009 at 07:22
a BIOS control is the best solution since it doesn’t alienate long-time ThinkPad owners, could be retrofit to prior model BIOSes (if Lenovo desired), and wouldn’t require extra manufacturing costs in creating new keyboards.
August 7th, 2009 at 12:09
BIOS switch with proper comment in documentation for ThinkPads newcomers.
August 7th, 2009 at 14:19
Two suggestions:
- Engineer the keyboard so that the keycaps can be switched as well. As far as I assume, that’s not possible right now, because of their different size (which should remain the same, though!)
- Another possibility might be to make the Fn-key an extra key, just like the volume or ThinkVantage button. It’s so special that it doesn’t need to be part of the keyboard layout overall. Theoretically, it could be even implemented as part of the ThinkVantage button (by holding it down). The color would already be perfect
August 7th, 2009 at 19:04
Make a bios option and the keycaps interchangeable, so if you switch you just need to swap keycaps. – no confusion about which key is where.
August 7th, 2009 at 19:20
Fn Ctrl as default.
This is a ThinkPad keyboard, not any other laptop. Still an option to change at the BIOS level will hopefully appease these moaners.
August 7th, 2009 at 22:31
I’m from Germany and I would love an option to swap fn and ctrl keys. I just ordered a T400s and think a BIOS option would be great. I use a lot of computers and notebooks and its not very comfortable to search the ctrl key every time you use it.
Thank you in advance for implementing this!
August 8th, 2009 at 03:19
As I stated in my comment on David Hill’s “Let the games begin” blog, http://lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/?p=1932, leaving the keys where they are is a win win for Lenovo.
“I see the option of giving the choice to the user as being a “win – win” solution for Lenovo. Firstly, they win customers who wouldn’t have purchased ThinkPads because of the Fn key placement. Secondly, they don’t upset and lose any long standing customers because as far as they are concerned – nothing has changed.”
Fn CTRL is a winner
)
August 8th, 2009 at 04:46
I have to say that the current keyboard layout is a real dealbreaker (if I thought about that before I bought my newest Thinkpad), so I think a BIOS switch is the least. I would prefer a easier way to change the position of Fn and Ctrl, within the ThinkVantage software.
August 8th, 2009 at 04:47
Oh, by the way: Please release the switch as a BIOS update for existing machines!
August 8th, 2009 at 08:37
Excellent! However you implement the switch, I’m all for it!
A BIOS option is all I need. Be sure to make it available on T400!
August 8th, 2009 at 18:02
However you implement this, it should be in such a way that it’s obvious to the user which key is which. Otherwise you’ll confuse people who inadvertently switch key functions, as well as those who temporarily use a ThinkPad with the reverse configuration to what they’re used to. Consider how many people get confused when they inadvertently enable the integrated numeric pad feature.
If interchanging keytops isn’t practical then perhaps a blue LED to indicate Fn.
As for different key top sizes, while that may be an issue for most ThinkPad keyboards, there’s also the precedent on the X-series where both tops are the same size.
August 9th, 2009 at 08:07
The Ctrl Fn option needs to be there, even if it is just a BIOS switch.
I understand the logic, but Ctrl combinations are used much more often than Fn combinations in a day so the Ctrl key should be instantly locatable in the corner.
If I am typing a document, I may use Ctrl combinations many times to copy and paste so I would like it to be smooth, without me looking for the key and interrupting my thoughts.
When I’m doing an Fn combination such as brightness up , it is usually not part of any other larger process, and it doesn’t matter if i have to slightly hunt for that key.
August 10th, 2009 at 00:19
Please PLEASE, for all that is holy in the circuit heavens make this bios switch a reality. I have been stricken to dell for this sole reason.
As on all standard desktop keyboards, the ctrl key is always on the bottom left. It drives me nuts going from a desktop to a, say, macbook or lenovo, with the fn key in the ‘wrong’ place.
Lenovo makes great laptops, this the one last thing they suffer from.
August 10th, 2009 at 01:41
I would prefer to have “Ctrl Fn” layout but if there was a BIOS update that allowed the person to choose, that would be just as great!
Lenovo PLEASE give the consumer the power to switch the Ctrl Fn key as they see fit!
August 10th, 2009 at 07:55
Why does the Fn key have to be in the left corner at all? It isn’t as critical as the keys needed for typing. Why not put it to the left of the F1 key or somewhere else up there?
August 10th, 2009 at 17:55
BAD IDEA!!! Leave the keys as they are if a user wants to change them then have it be done in BIOS. If keys are moved around I will bet anybody that tech support will get a lot of “stupidity calls” on where is this key and that key
August 10th, 2009 at 18:33
I have been checking out all sorts of laptops and I never realized how used to a keyboard a person can get. I believe with time almost everybody could subconciously adjust if they are decent typers. I prefer CNTRL-FN because I really don’t use FN at all.
August 10th, 2009 at 19:38
the BIOS options is a good idea, but now that Lenovo is playing with that idea, why not add the option to make the Win key do the same that the Ctrl key, that way with an optional replacement key we can change the small Ctrl key with a larger one coverting the current small one and the Win key
August 11th, 2009 at 04:10
I use Ctrl hundreds of times every day. When I miss it, not that often, it is almost invariably due to superfluous Windows keys. On those rare occasions that I miss Ctrl because of Fn, nothing gets messed up, unlike the several occasions when I lost a lot of text due to fast typing and Windows keys.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:11
personnally speaking, i really like the Fn–Ctrl layout, although i use other computers sometimes, i can still try to adjust to the Ctrl–Fn layout. i think that the Fn–Ctrl design is a symbol of Thinkpad which is very important to the hotkeys of thinkpad. for exemple, when i want to use one of the Fn hotkeys, i just have to find the corner and press it . it’s fast and easy! And i don’t think it’s difficult to try to adjust to the Ctrl–Fn layout when a user use another laptop. So i wish that thinkpad could keep this layout and if it must be modified, please just add a BIOS feature to allow the user to switch and keep the keyboard like before(Fn–Ctrl)
August 12th, 2009 at 05:57
Please add the BIOS switch.
I mean you must. It is obvious. Why even have a debate on here? It costs little, does not change any hardware, does not affect traditionalists, and satisfies thousands of users who want Ctrl Fn.
Why WOULDN’T Lenovo do this? That is the question. Not ‘SHOULD’ Lenovo.
Stop toying with us and get that BIOS fix out!
Also while you are at it PLEASE MAKE THE WINDOWS + BREAK KEY COMBINATION WORK. Currently this does not work because the Fn key must be used to access Break, but that prevents any other key press being detected (e.g. Windows key)
August 12th, 2009 at 18:53
Jack, when I press Windows + Pause/Break I get system properties on my T61 + XP. Has this stopped working on the newer 3-digit models/Vista?
August 13th, 2009 at 00:01
need to make ctrl alt del keys right next to each other
August 15th, 2009 at 02:03
I have a ThinkPad from work, which I hate to use because the Fn is where the Ctrl key has been since I started using a VT100 in the dark ages. A way, any way, to swap the functionality of these keys would be allow me to not hate this machine. I don’t want to traumatize people used to ThinkPads, so I don’t care which key is where, as long as I can swap them to make my fingers happy.
When evaluating poll reults, remember to take into account that only ThinkPad users are likely to find the site and vote. So, the larger non-ThinkPad community, which is used ot the Ctrl on the far left, will be under-represented in the results.
August 15th, 2009 at 15:52
goldfries Says:
August 6th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
CTRL should always hold the lower left corner.
I totally agree
August 15th, 2009 at 19:04
The current layout makes shortcut combinations with Shift+Ctrl+ really awkward (really often used in my code editor). Don’t care how the switch is done, just give it to me! Now
August 15th, 2009 at 19:38
I’ve written this in the comments on Design Matters, but I think it would be of no harm writing it here too.
The big issue is really not about the placement, hence that could be easily switched. That would be good.
No, the big issue is about Ctrl and Alt keys being too small. One key in the bottom row has got to go away. And come to think of it, what does the Fn key there?
The Fn key is to it’s nature more of a button then a key. It has some functionality that is more hardware than sofware, it does not belong to the standard keyboard. Conclusion: It’s a button!
Which button? Someone else had stumbled across a great idea, because of the color coding. All Fn functions are blue, and there’s a blue stripe on the middle click button… he thought it was the way to access those extra functions. Well, it wasn’t, but it could be. Great idea! Pity it wasn’t mine…
Then these other keys disturbing the bottom row. That means Windows and Menu keys. What about mapping that to Fn+click? Fn+right click for the menu, makes sense alright?
And all of a sudden we’ve got loads of space in the bottom row. It would come to good use keeping the left Win key for some key combinations, not requiring you to simultaneously press two buttons and a key.
I hope enough people read this for the idea to stick, I think it would be well worth some work to get it through.
Thankyou, to anyone who reads this and actively supports the idea!
August 17th, 2009 at 01:00
If you implement a switch mode, please deliver also Bios updates for older models (like R50e
August 18th, 2009 at 03:27
O8h7w The “menu” button *is* the right-click menu, so having it as Fn+right-click would be silly. I do sometimes use it, but very infrequently.
On the other hand, I do agree that moving the Fn key somewhere else could work. Sure, the two opposite corners of your keyboard is nice for the think-light, but not really a deal breaker. I know people that consider the current Fn placement to be one.
August 18th, 2009 at 22:10
I vote for ‘CTRL, FN’.
August 19th, 2009 at 20:39
Please I really need a fix, I just bought this new laptop SL500 and this is my only problem. I saw an HP laptop has such an option in the BIOS where people can swap the Fn with Ctrl. now I can’t play any games or do any word without connecting my laptop to a USB keyboard. Thanks.
August 23rd, 2009 at 12:38
I think there should be an option for the choice of FN CTRL or CTRL FN. as a touch typist, moving from a desktop keyboard to a laptop keyboard, my fingers always drift to the bottom left for CTRL but to find an FN there, it is most disruptive! I need CTRL FN!
September 2nd, 2009 at 15:14
One must be aware that the vote on a Lenovo website is inherently biased toward existing Thinkpad users. And even in that vote almost half of the people are unhappy about the Fn-Ctrl layout. Why Lenovo still sticks to it is beyond me.
I have been considering buying a Thinkpad many times in the past, but the Fn-Ctrl layout has always been the deal breaker. And I know quite some people who ultimately base their purchasing decisions on the keyboard. To reach a wider audience you may want to consider at least making Ctrl-Fn a configurable option.
September 2nd, 2009 at 22:14
I would not care the layout if one can choose with the BIOS. But please implement for all models (I use T500)
September 3rd, 2009 at 04:59
It’s been nearly a month since this. Any updates?
September 4th, 2009 at 07:43
Being able to swap them would be perfect, and I second the request to make sure that it’s implementable on all Lenovo computers (I have a tablet). Thanks!
September 5th, 2009 at 01:54
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make the BIOS switch available for the Fn / Ctrl key.
There are websites dedicated to this very topic, which indicates it is a big enough problem to fix and it should be very easy to fix.
I read one comment from a person who returned his Lenovo laptop to change it for a Dell, so that’s how big of a nuisance this problem can be.
Personally, I’d even pay $5 for a BIOS update if it would allow switching the keys.
September 9th, 2009 at 22:17
Seconded on paying for an update, if necesasry.
I’d also shell out some money to get an alternative keyboard (or even just replacements for the two keys, though the sizes would be odd) so I could swap them physically.
But that’s a distant second to the actual hardware switch.
September 10th, 2009 at 21:17
No, BIOS option is BAD. Software remap utility is GOOD. Why? Because IBM/Lenovo is also pumping out external USB keyboards with the ridiculous FN CTRL layout.
And, it would be a LOT easier, and backwards compatible, to just provide a remap utility that grabs ALL keys. This would also allow those silly Web Nav keys to be remapped to something useful. THINK(tm) about a real solution, something that solves LOTS of complaints without getting all trivial and specific. Real all-keys remapper utility would be the real winner.
September 12th, 2009 at 00:21
@Joseph The web keys can possibly be grabbed by software, but the Fn key codes are done at a *hardware* level. The computer doesn’t see FN-PgUp like it would see Ctrl-PgUp, it just gets the final code. In the case of PgUp, it might not even get a code at all, since that turns on the thinklight. For functions like num-keys, and suspend, it might be OK, but if it’s not hardware the thinklight/brightness then won’t work unless you’re in an OS (so not during booting, or without the right configs). That’s not so great. The BIOS has to be changed either way, and at least an option would provide a temporary fix for those who want it so badly while a different solution is produced (if that’s decided).
September 19th, 2009 at 21:56
Please, please, add BIOS option for switching fn and ctrl keys. Traditional layout is such a pain.
Current poll results are 1:1. So give us option to have Ctrl/Fn instead Fn/Ctrl.
September 21st, 2009 at 06:51
I really think that FN CTRL is totally wrong in the first place. As such, the only solution, which is very simple, is to physically flip it to CTRL FN. Very very simple, fewest possible problems, and here’s why it’s a good idea:
1) CTRL XXX YYY ZZZ SPACE is standard
2) The number of people who like FN CTRL is *finite*, whereas the number of people who haven’t been exposed to it and are 100% happy with (1) above is *infinite*
3) If you take the survey above as a baseline, then 37% of the respondents want CTRL FN. This points to a spectacular failure of the “feature”
4) Combine (2) and (3) above, and there is absolutely nothing left to stand on. Change it to CTRL FN and guess what? This whole controversy will evaporate. Those who learned FN CTRL are then obviously capable of learning CTRL FN.
The answer is simple: CTRL FN. No more alienation of new users, old users relearn. Done.
The only seemingly logical argument to having FN down there is the turn-on-the-lights feature. Well, if that feature is so darn important, then dedicate a SINGLE key to that feature **alone**! Yes, that’s right, what an idea, create a turn-on-the-lights key and now it’s even **simpler** to turn on the lights. Solved.
September 21st, 2009 at 07:01
There is one other way out, though. If the FN key actually did something worthy of it’s corner office spot, then it could stay there. It is doing NOTHING worthy now. Several companies have smartly used the FN key to combine with the cursor arrows to produce PageUp, PageDown, Home, End.
That’s been around for about a decade, is still a good idea, and will be henceforth. So very long ago I was typing, on a Thinkpad, and thinking, seriously, “Geewiz, those PgUp and such keys are in really awkward placed, I think it would make sense if they were on the cursor keys and I could use FN to make them go.” Well, my idea was not far fetched, because hunting about revealed that Sony, amongst others, DO THAT!
Wow, something that came so naturally to my mind was actually being built by someone. You know what that means? Yes, those manufacturers are really thinking about how a keyboard should WORK, not just trying to maintain a legacy.
You guys need to disinherit the IBM conceit of FN, **or** make it an actually useful key – meaning it gets used A LOT – worthy of being in such a high-traffic, high-profile spot.
September 23rd, 2009 at 19:43
The change I would like to see is to give the Fn key a real scan code so that it can be used with scripting utilities like AutoHotkey or so that some functions (like adjusting display brightness) can be done with an external keyboard.
Personally, I think the Fn key should be made into another Windows key. So, if Fn was the Left Windows key, pressing LWindows-Home would still increase display brightness.
I really hope this change is implemented in the Bios!
September 23rd, 2009 at 21:43
i just can’t believe it took IBM/Lenovo so long to start thinking about this option. Isn’t it just like an if-then statement in BIOS? I can’t imagine any reason to not to implement it when this option won’t need the fans of current layout to do a thing.
September 25th, 2009 at 17:21
I think ctrl fn would be better. Becoz most users have habit of using desktop. so it gets a bit generalized. still its matter of opinion of its customer’s preference.
September 26th, 2009 at 02:06
I have a ThinkPad and love it, but I switch between computers a lot, which means my muscle memory defaults to “Ctrl button in bottom left” – please allow to change this in the BIOS!
Thank you to Lenovo for listening to the customer feedback on this.
September 26th, 2009 at 08:47
Please make this option available soon. I’m waiting until this is implemented before buying a ThinkPad.
September 29th, 2009 at 03:04
Please, Please, PLEASE provide software or a BIOS option to do this. I have a t61 plus many other computers (PCs, Macs, etc.). Switching between them previously wasn’t too hard, but not w/ the FN/CTRL key on the T61, it is really slowing me down. thanks for polling/listening on this issue.
September 30th, 2009 at 09:11
I’m a professional software developer who uses the keyboard, and the Ctrl key in particular, much more heavily than the average user. I’m also a new T400 owner, and while my overall ThinkPad experience has been wonderful, the Fn Ctrl layout has been very disappointing.
While I can understand the reasoning behind putting Fn in the lower left (it definitely makes turning on my ThinkLight in the dark easy) and putting the left Ctrl key closer to the hand, the fact is that moving left Ctrl inward makes the keyboard *harder* for me to use, for two reasons.
First, after years of programming on keyboards with Ctrl in the lower-left, the muscle memory in my left hand is very, very strong. So when I’m on my ThinkPad, it’s not just a matter of “getting used to it”–I have to make a conscious effort to avoid using the Fn key by mistake. And it’s a terrible drain on productivity.
Secondly, the positioning of Ctrl closer to my hand on the ThinkPad keyboard actually makes using it much more difficult, even uncomfortable. While it might help someone with smaller hands to have Ctrl closer by, my fingers are long and slender, and moving the Ctrl key nearer to my hand is awful. It forces me to either a) contort my hand when executing a Ctrl chord or b) do something completely different, abandoning the use of my pinky finger on the Ctrl key.
For example, I frequently highlight text using the Ctrl, Shift, and Arrow Keys. On a standard desktop keyboard, I simply drop my left pinky down to grab Ctrl, and move my left ring finger over slightly to grab shift. I can then arrow left or right with the right hand to select what I need. This is often followed by a cut or copy command, which is simple enough, since I can leave my left pinky on Ctrl and just move my left index finger to the appropriate key.
But on the ThinkPad, I can’t do this at all. Executing Shift+Ctrl is excruciating using my habitual approach. Instead of moving my left pinky down to grab Ctrl, I have to move it down and to the right, and then move my left ring finger in the opposite direction, directly over my pinky. Try it. If your hand is like mine, it’s hard. Really hard. For me, it’s difficult to get my fingers in position, and once they’re there it puts undue strain on my wrist. So I’ve had to come up with something different when I use my ThinkPad: I sweep my left thumb all the way over to grab Ctrl, and let my left pinky grab Shift. It’s not great, but it works. But then, when I want to quit selecting text and start copying and pasting, I have to rearrange my hand to get my pinky back on Ctrl. Even if I can get accustomed to it, it will never be as fast as what I’m used to on my desktop keyboard.
This is just one example of how the ThinkPad layout gets in my way. I could offer more, but you get the idea.
I realize I’m getting really, really detailed here, but I’m trying to emphasize that this is more than a mere preference. I’m literally “wired” to work with Ctrl in the lower left corner, and I’ve been stunned at how difficult it has been to cope when one of my most-beloved keys is shoved over, even by the space of a single key.
I knew the ThinkPad’s were laid out this way when I bought my T400. I wrongly assumed that, like a Mac, these two keys could be remapped. It’s been a bitter pill to swallow that this is impossible. I certainly don’t expect Lenovo to buck years of tradition and change the physical layout of your keyboard. But a BIOS option for folks like me who depend on Ctrl being in the lower left corner would be fantastic.
October 1st, 2009 at 16:33
The BIOS switch option would be ideal. There’s no downside for anyone, regardless of which camp you’re in.
From a keyboard standards point of view the ThinkPads break the pattern. Even though individual folks may prefer the Fn + Ctrl arrangement it doesn’t seem optimal to deviate from a well established standard.
Thanks and regards
October 2nd, 2009 at 05:57
@Adam Cooper – Seconded. I feel your pains exactly. In fact, I’ve come up with the same solution. I also find I use my thumb for some other ctrl-commands (move the middle/ring fingers to XCV, which feels a little better than switching back and forth. It’s still not as fast or efficient for me, though, and I then find myself hitting the Windows Key with my thumb on non-Lenovo keyboards. Either way, I still want a Bios patch.
October 4th, 2009 at 09:09
I really really hope you guys implement a BIOS solution for this issue. I’m a programmer who just bought a Lenovo Y550 for casual home use, and this is driving me absolutely insane! I can’t get used to it, try as I might.
If it were my only computer, I’d just train myself to get used to it and forget about it. But as a programmer who regularly uses 3 different desktops at work and 2 laptops, and who relies on keyboard shortcuts, it’s virtually impossible for me to get used to the Lenovo design when I’m at work all day with 5 other computers that all do it the only way I’ve ever seen.
Please please please implement a BIOS fix for this! I don’t know how much longer I can tolerate accidentally pressing, Fn-C, Fn-V before I throw my computer out the window!
October 5th, 2009 at 23:47
It’s been two months since this post was originally made, and we haven’t heard anything about Lenovo’s plans. Could you provide us with an update? Is Lenovo still just thinking about this, or are there actual plans to give us a solution? If so, when can we expect it?
October 6th, 2009 at 10:45
Seconded Adam Cooper.
Here’s another one I’d really like: the Fn-key should enable the numeric keypad, without having to use numlock. It works the other way – numlock+J=1/Numlock+(FN-J)=J, why can’t it be
J=J/(FN-J)=1, when numlock is off? I’ve seen this offered as a BIOS enabled setting in other brands, and seems easy enough to do. (Numlock XOR FN == numpad).
October 6th, 2009 at 10:47
@Moderator
I know there’s someone there reading these posts, because I occasionally get messages saying that first-time posters are moderated. Any chance *you* could find out for us? Thanks in advance!
October 9th, 2009 at 00:05
Please DO implement the BIOS switch option and offer it to reflash also existing laptops!
Currently this positioning is the number one killer argument not to buy a Lenovo or any other laptop with this positioning. If you often switch between a normal desktop keyboard and the Lenovo, the latter simply isn’t usable, you always get the wrong keys, lose copied texts, accidentally reconfigure things etc..
The problem is discussed in numerous forums as you can see by googling, and several people think as I do.
Lenovo should consider who participated in its poll, and how many people who avoid Lenovo for this reason never heard about it.
October 10th, 2009 at 09:13
I don’t understand why this is even a question. Clearly, there is a need out there, since all laptops and desktops other than the Thinkpad have the Ctrl and Fn keys reversed. And I can’t imagine that Lenovo needs significant investment to enable a BIOS option … so what’s the harm in providing the option?
Users who prefer the current Thinkpad configuration – why do you oppose adding an option that will make no difference to you but make others’ life easier?
Lastly, I think the poll results are deceiving because most respondents are likely to be current Thinkpad users. Ask the much larger non-Thinkpad community and you will get a very different result.
October 12th, 2009 at 23:16
A BIOS update to allow swaping Fn Ctrl would certainly make me happy.
As for now I regret I ever bougt this Thinkpad T400s, all because of the Fn/Ctrl issue. Before I ordered it I had read that it would be possible to swap Fn/Ctrl in the BIOS, and didn’t think it would be a problem. But I am obviously wrong.
Please, Lenovo! At least make us a BIOS that allows swaping these keys. I can get used to this. All desktop keyboards have the Ctrl to the left. You can never change that, no matter what you believe.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:34
While you’re at it, can you also make a BIOS switch to turn the Windows key into another Alt key, getting rid of the Windows key altogether, so the keyboard more closely matches the older IBM Thinkpad keyboards that have a wider Alt key. Similarly make an option for the right hand side of the keyboard, getting rid of the Windows menu key. Some people, like me, use neither and regular keyboards just annoy me with the Windows menu springing up unintended. With Thinkpad and regular keyboards both having been around for so long, all of us have different muscle memory.
October 15th, 2009 at 11:06
@Frank. Both of those can be done with software, and I don’t see Lenovo releasing 8+ types of permutations (with all of the permitaions). The real issue is that the Fn key is captured in the BIOS, instead of sending a real scancode like all the others (Win, Menu, Alt, Ctrl, etc). That’s what really needs to have a setting/option/change somewhere.
October 17th, 2009 at 09:53
No harm in BIOS switch, and not much of an expense for Lenovo to provide two “spare” keys so one could actually physically swap them (here I’m referring to having two Fn keys in different sizes, as well as two Ctrl ones).
Personally, my ThinkPads will stay the way they’ve always been, with Fn control in the lower left corner.
October 18th, 2009 at 06:17
Any update on this??
October 21st, 2009 at 03:29
I am very eager to swap FN and Control. I never would have purchased Lenovo if I had realized those keys were backwards. Adjusting my fingers to the laptop has played havoc with my usage of other “standard” keyboards.
October 27th, 2009 at 21:19
I am considering a W700 and my biggest hold up is the FN-CTRL key issue. I have an old Gateway with this keyboard layout and it drives me nuts as every other system I have worked on is CTRL-FN. If there was a BIOS update to allow these to be swapped I would buy the W700 but now Dell and HP are in the lead.
October 30th, 2009 at 19:20
I am also very eager to swap the FN and Control keys. I also would never have purchased a Lenovo laptop if if I had realized that the configuration of these critical keys was opposite those over every other keyboard I have ever used.
November 5th, 2009 at 00:06
And… after three months we finally get an update:
http://lenovoblogs.com/yamato/.....anguage=en
It will come, but who knows when?
November 10th, 2009 at 15:56
here’s waiting for the day when every single key is customizable.
November 12th, 2009 at 07:19
At last, but only halfheartedly and probably ineffective (see http://www.thinkpads.com/2009/.....dels-only).
*_* PLEASE *_* offer this configuration option also for (older thinkpads and) IdeaPads!
As a little motivation: I hereby offer to buy an (only one – sorry ;>) Ideapad S12 immedeately as soon as you publish a flashable BIOS for the S12 with this option (and send me its URL to nospam § meier69.de).
No Joke!
I would never buy any Lenovo as long as there is no Ctrl key in the bottom left corner, because I know for sure I would get mad every time I switch between this nettop and any of my other computers with standard keyboards, and I am sure LOTS of others think as I do.
It is commercial suicide NOT to offer this, believe me (please).
November 19th, 2009 at 04:26
For the love of GOD and all that is sacred to you: get rid of the useless, pointless, and wasteful Windows keys!
Please!
Pretty Please!
With a cherry on top!
Really!
November 19th, 2009 at 18:18
I just replace my dell notebook with an ideapad Y450 and found out that the location of the Ctrl key was swap with the Fn key. It is very annoying to miss hit the Ctrl key when doing key combination. It would be very thankful if somebody can fix this problem.
December 8th, 2009 at 06:06
Control should always be lower left. Why change it now? I just got a Thinkpad at work, sitting beside my Mac and Dell laptops, and it’s literally driving me crazy. I’m actually thinking about getting rid of it for this reason. Otherwise I love it. Please let us switch them.
December 12th, 2009 at 07:28
I was truly disturbed to learn that Lenovo is planning to modify bios to make the change available, but not to existing Thinkpad models. I hope that the company will reconsider. This is an absolute necessity for those of use who use various notebook models and who run into a brick wall with the Thinkpad keyboard.
December 13th, 2009 at 04:46
I just bought the T400 and am very very disappointed about this configuration. I’m actually considering selling the laptop because of this. I dont care how the fix is implemented. Just please fix it ASAP!
December 15th, 2009 at 06:39
Dittos Ron – just received my T400 – never would have imagined my only complaint would have been about key placement – and how significant of a complaint at that. I have had 5 other family members/friends purchase Lenovo in the past 8 months on my recommendation – I’ll be sure it doesn’t happen again until there’s a BIOS resolution.
December 26th, 2009 at 00:03
Jep, please provide the possibility to update the BIOS! I have a T400.
December 28th, 2009 at 23:27
I really hate the FN at the corner. Switching in bios is a good idea.
December 30th, 2009 at 04:34
I hardly ever use Fn key at all, it would be useful if I could remap both to act as Ctrl, Fn key is useless and it’s rather frustrating when you always hit it.
January 3rd, 2010 at 05:43
I just purchased a T400 and the placement of the Ctrl and Fn keys are my biggest qualm. PLEASE provide an elegant fix for this. I would be willing to purchase a new keyboard for this.
January 4th, 2010 at 05:06
Bought my wife a Y550 for Christmas- what a mistake. The non-standard reversed cntrl/fn keys are driving her (and me) nuts. If I could return it I would. The BIOS update needs to be made available immediately for all laptops purchased in the last year, with older models added incrementally. This is not rocket science.
January 9th, 2010 at 22:16
What a nice laptop, except for that blunder! Whose brilliant idea? Why not switch around the Q and W keys, too, and see how your customers like that?
January 12th, 2010 at 11:54
I’ve resolved CTRL-FN problem on Lenovo Y550. See my topic at Lenovo forum:
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Id.....d-p/184220
I think I can make it for other Lenovo laptops too.
February 3rd, 2010 at 05:05
The results of the poll above are quite outdated. Currently (2010-02-02) Ctrl Fn wins (and I agree). Consider also that many people, like me, don’t usually participate in Lenovo/IBM forums and polls just because they rule out Thinkpads in the first place, because of that Fn key in the wrong position!
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:23
The Fn key where the Ctrl key should be almost made me throw the laptop away.
I also don’t know why that I insist that the delete key be in the top right corner either, my current keyboard is not in that design.
I don’t care how Lenovo has the key map, if they only let me change it to what I want.
I really don’t want to hear anyone say that the keyboard the way it is makes more sense, to you it does, to me it’s a nightmare.